Most overrated bands ever?

[boo boo]

Originally Posted by Comus

but as far as skill goes, what Drake displays on record is superior to Fripp.

Jesus, now you're just making it too obvious that you're joking.

I've listened to Pink Moon, it's probably the most boring thing I've ever subjected myself to listening to (until that Okkervil River album at least), the whole thing just sounded lazy, maybe there's something to his sound that's more original than other folk singers that I didn't catch, but it just sounds like the very basic strummed and fingerpicked open chords that most folk signers use to me, the kinda stuff that every guitar teacher lectures you about before anything else.

There's not a lot of skill required in that kind of playing at all, I can play it, anyone can play it. Even punk rock is more demanding. Now if you say he's a good guitarist, that's your opinion and that's fine.

But Lush? His music sounds pretty damn primitive and stripped down to me. Complex? Now I know you're messing with me.

More technically skilled than Fripp and Latimer? This goes beyond the boundries of having a subjective opinion and just saying something that is flat out objectively wrong. How do you expect me to take you seriously when you say things like this?

[sleepy jack]

Originally Posted by boo boo

I've listened to Pink Moon, it's probably the most boring thing I've ever subjected myself to listening to (until that Okkervil River album at least), the whole thing just sounded lazy, maybe there's something to his sound that's more original than other folk singers that I didn't catch, but it just sounds like the very basic strummed and fingerpicked open chords that most folk signers use to me, the kinda stuff that every guitar teacher lectures you about before anything else.

Most folk singers only use open chords and finger picking because there isn't much else. Vibrato generally doesn't sound good on an acoustic guitar, there's string skipping - which many including Nick Drake use and palm muting just sounds lame on an acoustic guitar. You really need to stop arguing that certain folk guitarists are bad because all they do is finger pick and strum open chords - there isn't much else to it. It isn't prog boo boo.

There's not a lot of skill required in that kind of playing at all, I can play it, anyone can play it. Even punk rock is more demanding. Now if you say he's a good guitarist, that's your opinion and that's fine.

You've said several times there's no skill required in what Nick Drake does and you even said you could play any of his songs before but whenever you're asked to prove it you always back away (I don't expect a different result this time but for the sake of arguing) why not prove it? Play one of his songs (of Comus' choosing.) I don't understand how you can say punk rock is more demanding anyway - finger picking isn't nearly as easy as you make it out to be.

But Lush? His music sounds pretty damn primitive and stripped down to me. Complex? Now I know you're messing with me.

If you're looking at complexity/lushness (in a general sense, this is ignoring Bryter Layter) in terms of how full it sounds then you're entirely missing his points. Comus is saying it takes a lot of skill to record an album with just you and your guitar and make it sound the way Pink Moon does - which is versatile and yes even, gasp! complex. Drake has a great ear for melody and chord progressions and it shows.

More technically skilled than Fripp and Latimer? This goes beyond the boundries of having a subjective opinion and just saying something that is flat out objectively wrong. How do you expect me to take you seriously when you say things like this?

You're putting words in his mouth now to make him look dumb. Don't do that; it's a bad habit. Comus never said he was more technically skilled than Fripp/Latimer that wasn't his argument at all. It had more to do with what I explained above and melody then the ability to shred.

[boo boo]

Originally Posted by sleepy jack

Most folk singers only use open chords and finger picking because there isn't much else. Vibrato generally doesn't sound good on an acoustic guitar, there's string skipping - which many including Nick Drake use and palm muting just sounds lame on an acoustic guitar. You really need to stop arguing that certain folk guitarists are bad because all they do is finger pick and strum open chords - there isn't much else to it. It isn't prog boo boo.

Drake being a bad guitarist is only my subjective opinion and there's no use trying to argue that. That's not what I'm arguing.

What I'm arguing is the idea that he is more technically skilled than Fripp, Gilmour and Latimer, which is the flat out most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

You've said several times there's no skill required in what Nick Drake does and you even said you could play any of his songs before but whenever you're asked to prove it you always back away (I don't expect a different result this time but for the sake of arguing) why not prove it? Play one of his songs (of Comus' choosing.) I don't understand how you can say punk rock is more demanding anyway - finger picking isn't nearly as easy as you make it out to be.

Well for one you're playing with other musicians. And playing at the speed and intensity of punk does demand the right amount of timing and chemestry from it's musicians.

I'm not saying finger picking is bad, that's not what I'm saying AT ALL, it can be one of the most difficult techniques when played at virtuoso level, and many of my favorite guitarists are finger pickers, but Drake's is the most basic of finger picking. Latimer flat out destroys him as a finger picker. There's legions upon legions of country and bluegrass players who display amazing finger picking chops, Drake is not in their league at all, and he sure as hell isn't in the league of prog guitarists.

If you're looking at complexity/lushness (in a general sense, this is ignoring Bryter Layter) in terms of how full it sounds then you're entirely missing his points. Comus is saying it takes a lot of skill to record an album with just you and your guitar and make it sound the way Pink Moon does - which is versatile and yes even, gasp! complex. Drake has a great ear for melody and chord progressions and it shows.

This is the problem, you're taking his songwriting and producing skills into acount, I'm talking about Drake purely as a guitarist. Sure making records that sound exactly like him wouldn't be easy, but it's hard to imitate anybody 100%, everybody has a little bit of uniqueness, I'll give you that. But lets take this statement and run with it, can anybody play the Smells Like Teen Spirit riff? Can just anybody make an exact duplicate of the song as Nirvana recorded it? No.

Of course, I don't think Cobain is a more technically skilled guitarist than Robert Fripp either. And even you have to agree that that saying Drake makes more technically skilled and complex music than every prog guitarist ever is an extremely ignorant and ridiculous claim.

You're putting words in his mouth now to make him look dumb. Don't do that; it's a bad habit. Comus never said he was more technically skilled than Fripp/Latimer that wasn't his argument at all. It had more to do with what I explained above and melody then the ability to shred.

Originally Posted by Comus

Drake far surpasses the skill of most progressive rock guitarists when it comes to creating melody alone. He's better than Fripp, Gilmour, Latimer, Creen and pretty much most other guitarists at the time.

You know Ethan, it wouldn't hurt to actually read the comments for once.

Now if he meant that as simply "Drake is more skilled at crafting melody than Fripp, Gilmour and Latimer", well, that's still hilariously wrong, but that goes straight down to subjective opinion and thus isn't really worth arguing about.

[sleepy jack]

Originally Posted by boo boo

Drake being a bad guitarist is only my subjective opinion and there's no use trying to argue that. That's not what I'm arguing.

What I'm arguing is the idea that he is more technically skilled than Fripp, Gilmour and Latimer, which is the flat out most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

He never said he was more technically skilled.

Well for one you're playing with other musicians. And playing at the speed and intensity of punk does demand the right amount of timing and chemestry from it's musicians.

Yeah but on the flip side playing by yourself is equally difficult because you have to make up for all those other musicians. I've played in punk bands it doesn't demand that much timing (seeing as it's all very standard) or chemistry - it's very simplistic stuff and very formulaic.

I'm not saying finger picking is bad, that's not what I'm saying AT ALL, it can be one of the most difficult techniques when played at virtuoso level, and many of my favorite guitarists are finger pickers, but Drake's is the most basic of finger picking. Latimer flat out destroys him as a finger picker. There's legions upon legions of country and bluegrass players who display amazing finger picking chops, Drake is not in their league at all, and he sure as hell isn't in the league of prog guitarists.

How is Nick Drake so terrible at finger picking? Give an example.

This is the problem, you're taking his songwriting and producing skills into acount, I'm talking about Drake purely as a guitarist. Sure making records that sound exactly like him wouldn't be easy, but it's hard to imitate anybody 100%, everybody has a little bit of uniqueness, I'll give you that. But lets take this statement and run with it, can anybody play the Smells Like Teen Spirit riff? Can just anybody make an exact duplicate of the song as Nirvana recorded it? No.

Um...no I'm not. I don't think Nick Drake even produced Pink Moon and seeing as Pink Moon is just HIS VOICE AND HIS GUITAR yes I'm going to attribute a lot of the atmosphere to his guitar seeing as it's the only instrument involved and to add onto that point of course I'm going to take his songwriting into account. Again Pink Moon; VOICE AND GUITAR. He WROTE the guitar parts and WRITING guitar parts is vital to being a good guitarist.

Of course, I don't think Cobain is a more technically skilled guitarist than Robert Fripp either. And even you have to agree that that saying Drake makes more technically skilled and complex music than every prog guitarist ever is an extremely ignorant and ridiculous claim.

All he said was Drake created better melodies than them. He never said he was more complex or technical.

You know Ethan, it wouldn't hurt to actually read the comments for once.

Now if he meant that as simply "Drake is more skilled at crafting melody than Fripp, Gilmour and Latimer", well, that's still hilariously wrong, but that goes straight down to subjective opinion and thus isn't really worth arguing about.

You realize melody isn't restricted to technical guitar playing right? You're completely twisting his words for the purposes of your own argument. Don't take an arrogant stance with me that I didn't read his post when you're doing things like this.