Most overrated bands ever?

[Urban Hat€monger ?]

Originally Posted by boo boo

Thinking that music needs "feeling, passion, emotion" and a whole bunch of other completely subjective, immeasurable bullsh*t is just a poor way of justifying your ignorance.

Pardon me for my ignorance then.

Maybe you don't look for those things but others do. Does that make them ignorant?
No , it just means they listen to music for different reasons than you do.
I like art as a whole , not just music. When I listen to music I want expressionism , not nicely played chords that could be played by a robot , I want to understand the way it's presented as a whole , where things come from, ideals , art , individuality , uniquness and yes passion , feeling & emotion. Yes it takes talent to be a good musician , but it also takes talent to write good songs , to choose original subject matter , to present something different as a whole and to keep doing it over a period of time. Perhaps you should get off your 'muso union' high horse once in a while & look at the whole picture.

[boo boo]

Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger

Maybe you don't look for those things but others do. Does that make them ignorant?

If they think it makes or break or song, then yes, they are ignorant.

No , it just means they listen to music for different reasons than you do.

I listen to Yes and Black Flag for the same f*cking reason, I enjoy the music, nothing else matters.

I like art as a whole , not just music. When I listen to music I want expressionism

I love expressionism, but its not the only form of art that has merit.

not nicely played chords that could be played by a robot

I seriously doubt that a well designed, highly advanced A.I. would have a hard time playing what The Fall and Stiff Little Fingers play, especially when considering that a 9 year old can do it.

I want to understand the way it's presented as a whole , where things come from, ideals , art , individuality , uniquness and yes passion , feeling & emotion.

Many progressive rock bands don't lack in individuality, uniqueness or idealogy, not in the slightest... I said it time and time again that you can't measure something as trivial as emotion... Emotion is completely insignificant when it comes to quality performance, I can be a spinal surgeon who is passionate about what I do, but if I don't have the slightest idea about treating a fracture in the L4 Vertebrate, then regardless of how I feel, I am an unreliable surgeon.

I can take a dump and put a lot of "passion" into squeezing out that hard one, in the long run it's still just a piece of sh*t.

Yes it takes talent to be a good musician, but it also takes talent to write good songs

Indeed, and it takes a lot of talent to be able to write songs that don't conform to the average song structure (verse, bridge, chorus, verse, bridge, chorus, pentatonic solo, verse, bridge, chorus)...

Judging from what you have always implied, if a intro or outro lasts longer than 30 seconds, it is wank, if its a instrumental, it is wank, if there are more than four beats per measure, it is wank, if the note value that constitutes one beat is more than 4, it is wank, if it's not strictly pentatonic, it is wank, if counterpoint is used frequently, it is wank, if any instrument other than guitar plays lead, it is wank, if a chord progression is more than 3 chords, it is wank, if a song has more than one solo, it is wank, if a song qualifes as a epic or a suite, it is wank.

You think everything is wank.

to choose original subject matter , to present something different as a whole and to keep doing it over a period of time.

I don't recall prog bands not being able to do this.

Perhaps you should get off your muso union horse once in a while & look at the whole picture.

I don't consider myself a Muso... What I know is not advanced knowledge for professional musicians, because I am not a professional musician, I don't know music theory, what I know is common sense.

[Urban Hat€monger ?]

I seriously doubt that a well designed, highly advanced A.I. would have a hard time playing what The Fall and Stiff Little Fingers play, especially when considering that a 9 year old can do it.

It's comments like this that make me wonder if you have read a word I have said about only looking at things from one perspective. So The Falls music isn't difficult to play? Well no sh*t , if you have ever bothered to read about them you'll find that people like them because they are chaotic & unpredictable with some damn good lyrics and never knowing what the band will come out with next whether it be Garage Rock , Techno or a Ballet.Not because people want a nicely played series of chords.
You could argue that The Jesus & Mary Chain just did easy to play 60s pop songs only with tons of drone & feedback , which is true , but they were the first to think of that idea in the first place , creating something different & original to counter the over produced rubbish of the mid 80s , do you see now?

Many progressive rock bands don't lack in individuality, uniqueness or idealogy, not in the slightest... I said it time and time again that you can't measure something as trivial as emotion... Emotion is completely insignificant when it comes to quality performance, I can be a spinal surgeon who is passionate about what I do, but if I don't have the slightest idea about treating a fracture in the L4 Vertebrate, then regardless of how I feel, I am an unreliable surgeon.

I can take a dump and put a lot of "passion" into squeezing out that hard one, in the long run it's still just a piece of sh*t.

Again you seem to be under the impression i'm on about the playing side of things. When I say emotion i'm not talking about the guitarist scrunching his face up during the 58 minute solo of 'Hobbits from Hobbitland Part VII' I'm talking about lyrics written from life experiences that I can relate to. The kind of song that sends shivers down your spine because you have lived it. THAT'S the kind of thing i'm talking about when I talk about emotion.

Indeed, and it takes a lot of talent to be able to write songs that don't conform to the average song structure (verse, bridge, chorus, verse, bridge, chorus, pentatonic solo, verse, bridge, chorus)...

Judging from what you have always implied, if a intro or outro lasts longer than 30 seconds, it is wank, if its a instrumental, it is wank, if there are more than four beats per measure, it is wank, if the note value that constitutes one beat is more than 4, it is wank, if it's not strictly pentatonic, it is wank, if counterpoint is used frequently, it is wank, if any instrument other than guitar plays lead, it is wank, if a chord progression is more than 3 chords, it is wank, if a song has more than one solo, it is wank, if a song qualifes as a epic or a suite, it is wank.

You think everything is wank.

I don't have anything against long songs at all , you seem to be forgetting how much I enjoy Can & Hawkwind to name but 2. 'Wank' (which I never even said anything about I should add) to me is pointless showing off , (and I still maintain drum solos are the worst idea ever in the history of rock music BTW).
Go listen to the 10 minute version of I Am The Ressurrection by the Stone Roses , that has an extended guitar solo in it , do I hate it? no ... because it compliments the song brilliantly , it's funky and it just fits in beautifully , It's not John Squire drowning out the rest of the band while he goes off on a Jimmy Page ego trip , which sadly he decided to do on their Second Coming album.

I don't recall prog bands not being able to do this.

Never said they didn't , Is this Boo Boo the prog defender looking for something to fight about that isn't there.

I don't consider myself a Muso... What I know is not advanced knowledge for professional musicians, because I am not a professional musician, I don't know music theory, what I know is common sense.

Thats a very narrow view of common sense

[sleepy jack]

Originally Posted by Mr Sensitive

You're just as bad when you are going on about boo boo and Led Zeppelin.

Yeah theres no particular reason or point i'm trying to make everytime I bring Zeppelin up out of nowhere to bash them.

Originally Posted by boo boo

You don't even know what music is do you? It is movement for the sake of function. Its organized sound that is composed in 3 ways (Melody, Harmony and Rhythm), there is absolutely nothing else music needs to be, and if you think there is you're a fool. Thinking that music needs "feeling, passion, emotion" and a whole bunch of other completely subjective, immeasurable bullsh*t is just a poor way of justifying your ignorance.

Lawl, hes ignorant this coming from the man who called someones opinion subjective and then bullshit.

Originally Posted by boo boo

I take it that what you mean by this is that if a band actually knows how to play sheet music, and they play what they read, it's robotic... Not all music has to be f*cking careless half written, half performed punk rock anthems with badly out of tuned guitars, some music is just programed, like classical and electronica, but prog of course puts a lot of emphasis on improvisation, so once again you don't even have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

Hahaha, so just because it isn't prog its a "half written half performed punk rock anthem with badly out of tuned guitars"? Christ, music doesn't have to be shitty to have passion. You're basically making stupid generalizations, though it shouldn't be shocking by now. I'd consider Patrick Wolf very passionate yet hes still classically trained and ridiculously talented, same with Piglet, Yo La Tengo, Modest Mouse, etc.

Originally Posted by boo boo

There is art in everything, just because you don't like it dosen't mean it isn't art, I think Jackson Pollock is the worst painter of all time, but I can't deny the fact that he is an artist, so don't tell me George Seurat wasn't an artist just because he had the audacity to actually apply technical know-how and discipline to his work.

Clearly we have very different preferences in art... You prefer music that suggests modernism and absract expressionism (which I dispise, but wont deny as an art form) where no discipline and just a vague understanding of the painting process is required while I prefer music that suggests impressionism and post-impressionism where at least some discipline and craftsmanship is key... The main difference here is I only talk about my preference and bands I think are either good or bad regardless of their genre, because I don't think a genre determines weither a band will be good or not. You talk about a whole bunch of unnecessary restrictions and what music should and shouldn't be... But in reality there is nothing that music needs other than the 3 things that make the basis for all music theory, which is Melody, Harmony and Rhythm.

LOL@bolded part, I don't feel like dragging up quotes but the amount of times you've gone around saying indie sucks, I think you're the biggest hypocrite here.

If they think it makes or break or song, then yes, they are ignorant.

Personal preference = ignorance.

I seriously doubt that a well designed, highly advanced A.I. would have a hard time playing what The Fall and Stiff Little Fingers play, especially when considering that a 9 year old can do it.

Missing the point ftw.

Many progressive rock bands don't lack in individuality, uniqueness or idealogy, not in the slightest... I said it time and time again that you can't measure something as trivial as emotion... Emotion is completely insignificant when it comes to quality performance, I can be a spinal surgeon who is passionate about what I do, but if I don't have the slightest idea about treating a fracture in the L4 Vertebrate, then regardless of how I feel, I am an unreliable surgeon.

I think the Ramones are a better band then any prog band i've heard. Are they "technically better?" Nope, I think you're the one using shitty analogies now.

Originally Posted by boo boo

I don't consider myself a Muso... What I know is not advanced knowledge for professional musicians, because I am not a professional musician, I don't know music theory, what I know is common sense.

I know music theory and do extremely well in it and I still think technical music sucks.

[TheBig3]

Originally Posted by The Unfan

Really? I think he was implying that prog should drink more booze.

yes exactly, and the fact that boo boo argued against me in the manner he did, analytical, Aristotelian and with all the passion of correcting a spelling mistake it shows you what effect prog has on people. They are evidently the mindless automatons I have prescribed them to be and can't, even when back into the corner, move out of that same old pattern, simply because patterns are all they were given.

I'd argue more, but Im sure the next response to this retort will prove my point even more.

[boo boo]

Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger

It's comments like this that make me wonder if you have read a word I have said about only looking at things from one perspective. So The Falls music isn't difficult to play? Well no sh*t , if you have ever bothered to read about them you'll find that people like them because they are chaotic & unpredictable with some damn good lyrics and never knowing what the band will come out with next whether it be Garage Rock , Techno or a Ballet.

I'm not knocking them down for any of those reasons, I'm just knocking down your suggestion that they are more special than most bands.

Not because people want a nicely played series of chords.

You could argue that The Jesus & Mary Chain just did easy to play 60s pop songs only with tons of drone & feedback , which is true , but they were the first to think of that idea in the first place , creating something different & original to counter the over produced rubbish of the mid 80s , do you see now?

I personally think Psychocandy was downright unlistenable, but I admire their originality, I just get annoyed with you having a field day with insulting every band you're not particularly into.

Again you seem to be under the impression i'm on about the playing side of things. When I say emotion i'm not talking about the guitarist scrunching his face up during the 58 minute solo of 'Hobbits from Hobbitland Part VII'

Stop condesending to me like that, I know what you mean by emotion, you don't have to spell it out to me.

What makes emotion? How do you determine emotional content in music? By lyrical content? Or by weither or not you like the guitar tone? Oh gee, I love Johnny Thunders guitar tone, what emotion.

I'm talking about lyrics written from life experiences that I can relate to. The kind of song that sends shivers down your spine because you have lived it. THAT'S the kind of thing i'm talking about when I talk about emotion.

I can write about my experiences too, simply writing about your life experiences instead of looking for other subject matter isn't really that creative... It's not a bad thing at all, but weither someone sings about their sexually abusive father or their favorite work of Tolken fiction, there are no rules for what lyrics should be about, and the kind of lyrics a song should be about...It would be boring as hell if everybody wrote exactly what The Fall wrote about.

I don't have anything against long songs at all , you seem to be forgetting how much I enjoy Can & Hawkwind to name but 2. 'Wank' (which I never even said anything about I should add) to me is pointless showing off , (and I still maintain drum solos are the worst idea ever in the history of rock music BTW).

Go listen to the 10 minute version of I Am The Ressurrection by the Stone Roses , that has an extended guitar solo in it , do I hate it? no ... because it compliments the song brilliantly , it's funky and it just fits in beautifully , It's not John Squire drowning out the rest of the band while he goes off on a Jimmy Page ego trip , which sadly he decided to do on their Second Coming album.

The thing is, just because its long, complex and unusual dosen't make it pointless soloing, you have to consider the style of music, the kind of composition, perhaps this is just the kind of music they are going for?

Never said they didn't , Is this Boo Boo the prog defender looking for something to fight about that isn't there.

Well I'm sorry, but I thought that was what you were implying.

Thats a very narrow view of common sense

I beg to differ... I don't deny that a musician can be passionate about his/her music, that would just be stupid. What I am denying is the idea that it affects the music and how good the music is, or that it can be measured to determine how good a song is or how talented a musician is.

Lyrics may matter to you, but being an AC/DC fan myself they mean absolutely nothing to me, they're just a bonus, if they're good, that just makes the song a little better, if they're horrible, then it's not even an afterthought if the music itself is great.

[Seltzer]

Originally Posted by Crowquill

You know alot about punk obviously.

You don't get it - I'm pointing out that not all punk is short or anti-prog for the sake of it. It would be stupid to say it is - about as stupid as the original prog comment.

Thats a pretty bad generalization that has nothing to do with music.

You still don't get it. I listen to a lot of alt rock. I'm just pointing out that saying that alt rock bands all have long song names and are pretentious for having them is about as stupid as the original comment on prog.

Cause jazz is the only genre that has different chord progressions right?

I don't recall myself saying that. But a stupid person would say that jazz has different chord progressions for the sake of it. That would be about as stupid as the original comment on prog.


You've clearly completely missed the point of my post. I was making stupid comments/generalisations about genres, then following them by "But it's not true". I was pointing out those comments were about as stupid as saying that all prog is boring and pretentious. Because that is a gigantic generalisation, and the word 'pretentious' gets thrown around far too much.

What's so pretentious about half of prog? OK, a lot of prog has long songs - there's nothing pretentious about that unless it's for the sake of having long songs and considering that not even all prog bands have long songs in the first place, I think it would be hard to prove that every prog band is pretentious for having long songs.

So can someone tell me why every prog band in existence is pretentious? I'm dying to know the answer.

[TheBig3]

See I told you.

[sleepy jack]

Originally Posted by Seltzer

You don't get it - I'm pointing out that not all punk is short or anti-prog for the sake of it. It would be stupid to say it is - about as stupid as the original prog comment.


You still don't get it. I listen to a lot of alt rock. I'm just pointing out that saying that alt rock bands all have long song names and are pretentious for having them is about as stupid as the original comment on prog.



I don't recall myself saying that. But a stupid person would say that jazz has different chord progressions for the sake of it. That would be about as stupid as the original comment on prog.


You've clearly completely missed the point of my post. I was making stupid comments/generalisations about genres, then following them by "But it's not true". I was pointing out those comments were about as stupid as saying that all prog is boring and pretentious. Because that is a gigantic generalisation, and the word 'pretentious' gets thrown around far too much.

What's so pretentious about half of prog? OK, a lot of prog has long songs - there's nothing pretentious about that unless it's for the sake of having long songs and considering that not even all prog bands have long songs in the first place, I think it would be hard to prove that every prog band is pretentious for having long songs.

So can someone tell me why every prog band in existence is pretentious? I'm dying to know the answer.

No I completely understood the point of the post it was just stupid and repetitive with not very well thought out generalizations. See you basically said my opinion on prog isn't true, i'm all for arguing opinions but to flat out dismiss it in that manner? Pretty stupid especially without even bothering asking until after telling me I don't understand and my opinion is already untrue.

I think prog is pretentious because every prog band i've heard has been boring, overly technical to where it just sounds like they're trying to be technical, and most of them think they're the best thing to happen to music. Like Dream Theatre for instance. Prog fans thinking prog is the only good genre of music doesn't help either.

[Seltzer]

Originally Posted by Crowquill

No I completely understood the point of the post it was just stupid and repetitive with not very well thought out generalizations. See you basically said my opinion on prog isn't true, i'm all for arguing opinions but to flat out dismiss it in that manner? Pretty stupid especially without even bothering asking until after telling me I don't understand and my opinion is already untrue.

I think prog is pretentious because every prog band i've heard has been boring, overly technical to where it just sounds like they're trying to be technical, and most of them think they're the best thing to happen to music. Like Dream Theatre for instance. Prog fans thinking prog is the only good genre of music doesn't help either.

The generalisations are meant to be stupid, to match the original comment and general criticism of prog. I.e.

Prog songs are long for the sake of it. Punk songs are short for the sake of it. Both are stupid generalisations.

Some people would soon criticise jazz and say that jazz musicians use 'exotic'/unusual/non-rock chord progressions for the sake of it, but that's obviously not true.

Some people think prog is pretentious for having long songs. Not all prog has long songs, therefore stupid statement. In the same way, many think alt is pretentious for having long song names. Clearly a stupid statement as not all alt has unnecessarily long song names.


I assure you those generalisations are stupid, and were very well thought out to match the 'quality' of the original comment on prog.


So is anyone going to tell me why all prog is pretentious? All prog, every prog band that is. Because if you're using Dream Theater as the prime example of a prog band, I don't think you've listened to a hell of a lot of prog. Radiohead is a prog band which isn't technical - didn't have to look far to find that...

Why can't you accept that some music is very technical? Calling it pretentious because the musicians have a lot of technical skill is stupid. And don't try to tell me that all prog fans only like prog - that is a ridiculously idiotic statement.