rnrloser_IX

Thanks man, I'ma check this stuff out soon.

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rnrloser_IX

I actually have to agree with this for the most part. I know some basic theory as far as a few scale modes and which scales to bust out, but past that, I sort of turn my brain off unless if I'm actually trying to think a specific phrase or technique that I want to do, like playing a harmony. Everything else, I just feel. Like I play the opening to crazy train and do a pinch harmonic on the D. Don't know why. I just started doing it. I will say though, knowing a lot of theory really brings one to the next level. I've noticed this with my brother who just graduated with a performing degree o the tenor sax. He always really good but now it just blows me away.

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mr dave

That's fair. My main thing is if you take the guys from Autechre out of their comfort zone and drop them in a completely different musical environment could they accomplish anything? Would they be able to pick up an instrument and make something happen? Maybe they could, but the impression I'm left with based on their musical output and what I've read about them leads me to believe they'd just stare at the instruments.

Conversely someone like Corgan, while still likely being a colossal dick, would be able to step out of his comfort zone and still manage to create something based on the technical and theoretical knowledge he would have learned through his instrument.

I don't quite agree with your sculptor analogy though. It's more like I'd be hesitant to call someone a sculptor if they've only ever used something like a CNC machine and never learned to use a hammer and chisel.


As for Freebase Dali's introspection, I'd still call you a musician since you retain that knowledge. You might not be a virtuoso on your instruments but you can still play in the moment right? Your focus might be refined to a different aspect of it but you've still experienced the full spectrum. I think that's really what I think is lacking with some of the exclusive computer composers, they only have the one aspect. To me it's like calling yourself an athlete because you know the rules of the sport and bought a jersey.

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Janszoon

I absolutely think they could accomplish something. Their whole career has been one of building their own equipment and finding new ways of doing things.

The point I was making relates to the fact that a lot, perhaps most, of the extremely well-regarded sculptures of the past few hundred years were not produced directly by the hands of the artist, but nevertheless nobody would ever accuse their creators of not being sculptors. Anyway, it was just a metaphor.

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Rubato

why on earth would that matter? if you left a cellist in a room with a trumpet and they failed to knock out a tune do they lose their musician status? If someone created the most complex masterpieces and wrote them down without using an instrument would you only accept him as a musician if he could play one chord on guitar?

mr dave

I'm going to step away from the whole Autechre / Corgan thing because I was taking it into ridiculous projection land.

Though I'm curious about the sculpting side of things now. It sounds more like a construction type situation between the architect/sculptor and the construction workers/artisans who follow through with their plan. Though on the artistic side of things you'd build yourself up from artisan to artiste over the course of your career; conversely no amount of putting up drywall is going to give you the experience necessary to design an actual building.

Going back to the music thing, I really think if all a person has done is focus on the composing side of things then they're not quite fully realized as a musician. Yes, they're vital aspects of the art form - so are recording engineers. Does the guy who does the mix for an album count as a musician? He's still very well invested within the process, still has a very tangible effect on the finished product, but most people don't count them as musicians.

Here's my personal anecdote about an 'electronic music creator'. I was in an A/V class years ago and one of the assignments was to create a radio spot using stock or original music. One group made a spot for 'The Music of Student's Name'. It was jam packed with phenomenally smooth and intricate piano arpeggios like Chopin channeled through Oscar Peterson.

The guy had stubby sausage fingers.

All he actually did was plot notes into a piece of computer software. Is it OK for him to present himself as a musician when he lacked the ability to perform or tangible experience with the actual instrument. No one in the lecture theater outside his study group thought so. From what I've read in this thread so far I'm curious. Was he (with his complete lack of ability to actually play the instrument called the Piano) and actual piano based musician?

@Rubato - Why so defensive?

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Rubato

Defensive? I do apologise if it looks that way, I'm just putting my opinions across and trying to understand your point of view. Try reading my posts in a more cheerful tone, text tends to leave itself open too much to interpretation.

Yes, he is a musician, there are many instances where a musician has created something beyond their own ability, Scriabin composed a few pieces he himself couldn't play. If someone is writing a piece for orchestra they don't go about it by playing every instrument separately, in fact they often write pieces for instruments they don't play themselves.

What's the fundamental difference between Just plotting down notes into a piece of computer software and just playing a few notes on piano? a piano is just a tool, as is the program used to play the piece. Most electronic music tends to fail at being able to use convincing articulation, dynamics and rubato, leaving the end result rather cold, even those that can are severely outmatched by their more traditional counterparts, but their use and end goal is the same, the electronic one just lacks the performance value.

Janszoon

I would say, yes, it is a case of the creator having other people implementing their plan, much in the way the guys from Autechre might use a piece of software to implement theirs.

Meh. I think I've really driven the analogy into the ground at this point. One interesting side note though: one or both of the members of Autechre come from an architecture background, something which I think you can really hear in their music.

Now that's an interesting question. I'd lean toward yes, but I that's certainly an intriguing thing to consider.

I'm not sure I fully understand the context of this story. Claiming to be a pianist when you can't actually play the piano is definitely bullshit, I agree with you there, but that's a very specific claim. Claiming to be a musician when your instrument is the computer, even if the music you make sounds like it was played on a piano, seems okay to me. I certainly don't think there's anything dishonest about it, which is what it sounds like you're getting at here.

To take this in a personal direction, I'm sort of curious if you'd consider me a musician or not. I've been making music for about 17 years. I took guitar, piano and sax lessons when I was younger, am able to read music with some effort, and have a little understanding of music theory. I make music via computer, generally by creating loops and utilizing a sequencer to some extent to get what I'm going for. I play keyboard, bass and guitar all at a very basic level that would terrify me to try and pull off on stage, but I'm pretty good at taking these pieces, cutting them up and stitching them together to make a song. I also sing, not amazingly well, but good enough to have done so in a couple of bands and to surprise people on the occasional karaoke night.

I usually say "I make music" rather than saying I'm a musician, not because of the computer element, but because it's my hobby not my vocation. I've known plenty of people who make music full time, who've gone to school for it, etc. and it seems kind of presumptuous to put myself on their level.

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Howard the Duck

why aren't people considering the whole etymology or philology of the word "musician"

if you make music, i'd say you qualify as a musician

i don't think performance or virtuosity comes into the equation

or even theory - you might need to have some building blocks, I guess

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steve0211

On a related note, if an electronic music creator can write songs that OTHER people perform using musical instruments, is it possible that the songwriter is not a musician?

Applying the theory mentioned here a few times that one must be able to perform their work using widely accepted musical instruments, I wonder what to call the songwriters that are not able to play their work on guitar, or piano, etc.

I am enjoying the comments in this thread!