i think that the person playing the music gets to decide what they use as their musical instruments. music does not exist to meet the ends of intelligent conversation. it just exists and will find it's way into the audible realm in as many ways as it can.

music doesn't care what we think is an instrument or think is not an instrument...

so... should WE?

This is probably my favorite response in this entire thread. You are absolutely right. One of the great things about art is how it defies conventional boundaries. It's hard enough to define what even music itself is, the idea that we could fully delineate what is and isn't a musical instrument is probably pretty futile.

do we need to explain avant garde to you?

No. A computer is capable of producing entirely new sounds all together. Plus, even if it were only capable of that - that would still qualify it as an instrument.

plus a lot of keyboards and synthesizers have computer chips (technically making the computers)

Stone Birds I agree with you, you make a good point. What is the difference of a Synthesizer/Warkstation (which most people consider a instrument) and Computer that can perform some of the same functions plus others?

I've kept out of this discussion for sometime hoping the fog might clear.

You have got back to the point that I mentioned about eight pages ago. A workstation keyboard is designed specifically to play music and produce music. A guitar and a saxophone or piano, etc... also fall into this same grouping that we call musical instruments.

Ok, a comuter can be used to play and create music, no argument there. However, they are not not designed specifically to play music, it is more of a utilitarian 'jack of all trades' tool and in our world of labels is not a true musical instrument.


All this intelectual crap about context and labels is just getting in the way of something that is really simple and resulted in some of the most stupid bull***t I've ever heard, really. Some folks started disapearing up their own bottoms they were trying to be soooo clever,ha,ha..


As mentioned earlier, what does it matter? If someone uses a computer to make music and they see it as their musical instrument, good for them, no harm done by them being mistaken....

:band: < Spot the odd one out. Correct, a microphone is also not a musical instrument.

Have a great weekend and a Happy Easter, Gordon.

It's internet argument.

You don't have to address the entire argument, you don't even have to address the original post, but defeat one part of it and you've won the entire thing. Relevance matters very little.

And when all else fails, use existential philosophy to explain your complete lack of sense.

A synthesizers or keyboards are "jack of all trade" too, they can simulate the sounds of other instruments, not just one instrument. But when a computer doesn't it, it fails to be an instrument because it's a "jack of all trades?" I think as long as you can play music in real time with a computer (with a midi control etc) it is an instrument. Whether it's Keyboard Synthesizer/Workstation, or a PC they are related to each other becaus they are used to create electro-acoustic music; if you use it to play music then it can be considered a musical instrument.

The flute for example, one of the oldest instrument was once made out of bone, then over few millenium it change to become a wooden instrument, then Theobald Boehm developed the Flute into its modern form. It's always been a flute in each developemental stage what change was the material and that it turn changed it's timbre. The same thing is true for instruments that create elctro-acoustic music. The material and technology change how the sound is generated electronically but if you take the history of electro-acoustic instruments at each stage they are called instrument up until the point you get to the PC? Each isntrument had it own way of generating sound from tone wheels, to VCO using transitors in synthesizers, to computer chips in keyboard, and in each stage in it's developement they are all considered an instrument. But for some reason in its present stage as the computer it fails to be an instrument!?

The microphone is a transducer - they are found in all kind of musical equipment. The guitar has a pickup which is also a transducer so even though a mic not an instrument, it has something in common with an electrical guitar so why is the microphone the odd one out?

You're right a fog machine is not an musical instrument! Yet it used on stage to accentuate presence of the band, which in turn accentuates the music.

An synthesizers or keyboards are "jack of all trade," they can simulate the sounds of other instruments, not just one instrument. But when a computer doesn't it, it fails to be an instrument because it's a "jack of all trades?" I think as long as you can play music in real time with a computer (with a midi control etc) it is an instrument. Whether it's Keyboard Synthesizer/Workstation, or a PC they are related to each other because they are used to create electro-acoustic music; if you use it to play music then it can be considered a musical instrument.

The flute for example, one of the oldest instrument was once made out of bone, then over few millenium it change to become a wooden instrument, then Theobald Boehm developed the Flute into its modern form. It's always been a flute in each developemental stage what change was the material and that it turn changed it's timbre. The same thing is true for instruments that create elctro-acoustic music. The material and technology change how the sound is generated electronically but if you take the history of electro-acoustic instruments at each stage they are called instrument up until the point you get to the PC? Each isntrument had it own way of generating sound from tone wheels, to VCO using transitors in synthesizers, to computer chips in keyboard, and in each stage in it's developement they are all considered an instrument. But for some reason in its present stage as the computer it fails to be an instrument!?

The microphone is a transducer - they are found in all kind of musical equipment. The guitar has a pickup which is also a transducer so even though a mic not an instrument, it has something in common with an electrical guitar so why is the microphone the odd one out?

You're right a fog machine is not an musical instrument! Yet it used on stage to accentuate presence of the band, which in turn accentuates the music.

Pick, pick, pick,pick,pick.

Mr. Neopolitan, do you ever agree with anything? Your silly question above asking why the microphone is the odd one out when in the previous sentence you say yourself that it is not a musical instrument.

Enough said and a Happy Easter to all, especially all you who struggle to see reason and are lacking somewhat in the good old fashioned common sense area, ha,ha...

Gordon.

So you'd rather us all agree with each other? That would make for an interesting forum.

And anybody who says a microphone isn't an instrument has clearly never watched Mike Patton perform.

I seriously can't comprehend how anyone would think that a computer cannot qualify as an instrument. an instrument is just another name for "tool". all musical instruments are tools that musicians use. so, yes. a computer, with a program that creates sound, is a musical instrument. it's also many other things. most musical instruments are inanimate; they only create music with human interaction. a guitar leaning against the wall has the same musical usefulness as a powered off laptop, just as a table has the potential to create percussion by rapping your knuckles on it.

Hi there,

It seems you guys are missing the point here. To use the example that was just mentioned in the last post.

A table can be used to make music like 99% of everything else. The difference being that it was not designed to produce music as it's main function compared to a true musical instrument where the main design purpose is to help a musician play music. As mentioned earlier, many, many posts back, there is a difference between a potential musical instrument and an actual musical instrument. Simple.

Surely, it's not that complicated.

As far as I'm concened. I'm just trying to explain what should be an obvious common sense fact. As you say, it does take you folks who can't accept that to keep the discussion interesting. Real silly at times but I guess it's each to their own.

That's my last one on this. I have a whole week off work and the computer's gonna be off the whole time, (musical instrument or not.ha,ha...).

Cheers, Gordon.:usehead:

what is the difference between a "potential" musical instrument that would stop it from being able to create music not unlike an "actual" musical instrument? design or intent aside, it's being used musically. it's an INSTRUMENT used to create music. music is predicated by the sound of the instrument once used - there actually is no difference of input or output between a "potential" and an "actual" musical instrument - they both create sound when utilized, to serve the musician's purpose. your point is inconsequential. you are arguing about the intention of the tool upon its inception, not the validity of the tool itself. since every body seems to be asking hypothetical questions; what if a computer was created solely for the purpose of producing sound? what would make it more or less valid as a musical instrument - its intent, or use?

You guys......

The answer to all this is right there in your own question. You ask what is the difference between a potential musical instrument and an actual musical instrument.

I suggest at this point that you find a dictionairy and look up the meanings of 'potential' and 'actual'.

There lies the answer that I have been attempting to get across. Anything further is just a case of argument for arguments sake.

I have faith in my own ability to reason and I know this is correct.

All the best, Gordon.:beer:

I was only agreeing temporarily to what you said that it was "also not a musical instrument" by saying 'so even though a mic not an instrument' so that the it wouldn't to spiral out into another debate whether or not a microphone is a instrument. (In the hands of a human beat box one could consider a microphone an instrument - plus what Conan said about Mike Patton.) The micorphone does have something in common with the electric guitars, that both don't have in common with the drums. The microphone and the pick-up of an electric guitar are "transducers" while the drum set is an acoustic percussion instrument! So it is not the "odd one out" of the group. It's all about the pov and set theory.

I specifically quoted "potential" and "actual" because they were semantics YOU brought up, and won't drop. your mind is simply too closed to realise the point. "potential" and "actual" aren't even part of the equation. is a computer a musical instrument? the answer is yes.

I ate Taco Bell the other day and I can tell you that after about 2 hours, I was certainly a musical instrument. Wind instrument.

DERAIL! DERAIL! :tramp:

Yeah, but I don't care who you are. Farts are funny.

If you can't laugh at a fart, you need to find your inner child.

Quoted!

You are welcome, sir.

:laughing:

Damn, read the posts on previous pages before bringing back the same interpretation of what an instrument is.

Yes it is... Is a synthesizer a computer? yes... you do the math

We're not talking about a computer as a processing ability or an electronic component. We're talking about a computer as a general definition of what a personal computer is.

Is a computer a musical instruament hmmmm??!!. I would have to say no cause not hard make music with a software. Now a real instrument u have practice practice practice now the software/computer is a tool. I dont see now practicin nor do i see pain or time in learnin each part of certain instrument makes certain sounds or beat with a computer/softwear. They had take sounds from a real instruments n put em on the software. However as im makin these statments that may or maynot make scense i can see how you think a computer could be an instrument.

Holy thread necro batman! This thread died in April!

We were not members in April ! HA HA

Um, I was. You weren't. Regardless, thread necros are bad mmkay.

Especially when you have nothing relevant to say...

Bottom line, a computer is a tool that can be used to make music. Whether you call it an instrument or not is your call. But it can make music, and in some cases, beautiful music. That's all that matters.

You say it's easy to make music with software? and insinuate that it doesn't require practice. I used to be ignorant enough to think that myself, until I tried using Fruity Loops for the first time, that **** is hard. I'm a musician myself, I've played guitar and primarily bass guitar for about 9 years now, and making music electronically is a whole different ballgame. So don't knock it until you've tried to do it yourself.

Am I the only one who sees the irony of someone who says they're a drummer saying this.

I think computer software is a lot harder to master than a bongo.

Correct.

I play a mean pair of bongos you know. :thumb:

So your calling acustic drums software?
Sorry I am new to music stuff, I used to bang on my buds drums way back in the 90's
Dummerchic's bro got drums so we both been messing with them but I would say drums guitars so on is a musical instrument not software and they all make music. however a keyboard is electronic so its making music by software inside of it.

I don't think anyone's arguing semantics here. The bottom line is both a guitar and a music program are tools used to make music. Both are intended to do so. So what's the difference?

Regarding which is more difficult to master, that's probably more subjective than anything, and would depend on the particular instrument. For me personally, drums/guitar/bass/keys are a lot easier to manage than professional software and hardware. There's a lot more thinking involved in software.

Just sayin computers arent hard to figure out. Now weither it a instrument it arguable. It can be then agian it cant. Depends on who you are. now i wounder most people go to guitars instead of base or drums me and my bro talkin n most ppl want be a guitarist in a band n not drums or base can you tell me y that is?! No matter subject people will debate on it. So now the computer who knows it can be use for many many things. So asked if it could be an instrument are we really talkin bout the computer itself or the program/software?!

Well that's sort of the chicken and the egg theory. You can't have one without the other. A computer is worthless in terms of making music without the software, and the software is useless without a computer to run it. So I guess we're talking about the combination of the two as one device.

Whether people choose to play a traditional instrument or produce it digitally is their own decision, great music can be made by both.

as an electronic fan, I would say that a computer is an instrument, as in my eyes, anything that produces sound is an instrument. In fact, I would even go as far to say that a Gameboy could be used as an instrument, just ask Fuck Buttons. If you pull out the gameboy cartridge while the system is still playing a sound, you'll usually get this odd droning noise. If it can be used to make sounds in a creative manner, it's an instrument.

sorry if this is seen as incorrect to you.