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I need to buy a guitar within the next few days: Which GIBSON?
Hey folks,
Im still havent choosen, which Gibson I would prefer. I mainly play "the jazzzzz" so I was thinking something like the ES 335? I would prefer it would end up under $2000. I have went through all local stores and didnt find one which suited my needs so Im prepared to buy online. Your time is appreciated! Cheers, Thom |
OK, here's what you should do: Quit jazz, buy a flying v, start the greatest metal band ever and then beat the devil in a rock-off.
You can follow my advice or you can just buy a guitar. Your choice. |
Why would anyone regress to give up jazz to play metal? Its like deciding on your 21st birthday that you want to go through puberty all over again.
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Why do you always incorporate puberty with metal
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Because Heavy Metal is the way little boys help themselves deal with the hormonal upheaval that causes them to hump their pillows in the middle of the night. Seriously, I love Metal to death (pun intended). I just know that Die-hard metal heads are the fundamentalists of the music world, so I feel the need to try to piss them off whenever I can.
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Understood
You keep pissin' those metalheads off |
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As for threadstarter - Don't just look at gibsons. Particularly because their quality control is all over the place and you could very well end up with a total lemon unless you play hundreds and find a really good one. Ibanez makes some most excellent guitars right now, they'd be my first choice. Go down to your local shop and pick out some guitars you like the look of, regardless of brand, and play them. You may also be surprised at how good solid body guitars are for jazz, so don't just limit yourself to semi hollows like the 335. For an example, my S2170FW is a solid body mahogany guitar, but its pretty much the most versatile guitar I've ever played, and jazz happens to be one of the places where it shines most |
Hagstroms make some pretty good jazz guitars particuly the Viking,Hj-500/600 and, HL-550.
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Ibanez never did make nice looking guitars. The ES 335s on the other hand pphhhoorrr! But yeah you should own one of these at least at some point in your life.
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Nah I stand by my last comment and I'll add that they have nothing new to offer that hasn't already been done before, those last few are just gibson rip offs.
I had an Ibanez when I was a 'pubescent' teen (first guitar) and apart from having an easy-to-learn-on thin neck I'll never look back (they're also plagued with low quality hardware). But back to the original question, for jazz gibson are great. Guitarist in my band used to study/teach jazz and he swear by the ES series and from playing his I can say its a nice piece of workmanship. Even though the Ibanez can give a lower jazz tone it's not it's forte. But yeah whatever floats your boat and works for you. |
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If it was your first guitar, the of course it will have had low quality hardware. Its a beginners guitar. Thats like expecting a 70's skoda to have interior trim to match a ferrari. My S has a ZR, I know people with 20 year old plus RG's and my old music tech teacher had a 15 year old S prestige with the original Edge tremolo. Out of all of those not one is showing any signs of excessive wear. This is compared to my Uncles 70s Les Paul, where the strings have eaten through the tops of bridge saddles, the finish is wearing away in places, the tuners and bridge are tarnished and most importantly, the neck itself is actually very slightly warped longitudinally, leading to a vaguely uncomfortable compromise between high action and low buzz. Second, I picked those guitars out from the product line because they were more traditionally style, as I figured they would appeal to you more than a succession of RG and S types, which are MY preference. I can certainly post many Ibanez guitars that I feel are beautiful, but you would disagree I feel. To be honest, I'd like to know how often you've actually played a high end Ibanez (Prestige or above) Let me ramble about my dislike of gibsons a bit more. My uncles Gibson is a perfectly fine guitar. It plays well and it sounds good. HOWEVER. I have played many and varied guitars that are much better than it, many of which have been ibanez. Gibsons quality control is currently awful. I have heard horror stories from various luthiers, guitar techs, and dealers, who have seen some truly awful gibson ****ups. They mainly come from the times gibson have changed ownership. Every time they are bought out or put under new management, the quality rises drastically as the new owners try to bring back the gibson name. Later on in this process the quality slowly drops and QC becomes less rigourous. Inlays start being routed shallower, to save on buying new router bits. I have seen examples where the ivoroid is actually just a thin grey, as its so thin. There is a review on ultimate guitar.com of a gibson les paul that arrived to them badly set up and with numerous flaws in the finish. This is compared to much cheaper guitars that have arrived to me set up perfectly and with no flaws in the finish whatsoever. The review states its a good guitar, but I think he's pushing too hard for a gibson paycheck, since the site in general has been very pro gibson lately, as many of their writers work for them. There are also efforts to produce better looking guitars over better playing. Examples being a dealer I spoke to once, who was suckered into buying a beautiful quilt top LP, that had no resonance whatsoever, as the quilt was where ALL the attention had gone, with no thought as to its effect on tone. Since that quilt turned out to be incredibly dense, the guitar never lived up to its true potential. Another flaw on the same guitar was the third fret was in the wrong place entirely, so the guitar could NEVER be intonated. THis also holds true in my PERSONAL experience. A friend has bought two Les Paul Studios from different years. Neither of them has played anywhere near as nicely as its pricetag dictated. Ibanez S, RG, and Jem guitars all managed t outdo it in all areas of ton and feel. Not to mention other brands. Of the guitars I've played in stores, I have played £1300 Gibson Les Pauls, then swapped out to an Epiphone Les Paul that actually played and sounded MUCH better. Not a litle but a lot, through the same amp and same settings of that amp. To make a long story short, out of literally hundreds of guitars, the gibsons have been the ones that for me, have ALWAYS stuck out as being worth nowhere near their pricetags or reputation. My personal preference for ibanez is just that, personal preference, but IMO, Gibson are selling on their name and heritage more than the instruments they make. Edit: Nothing new to offer? Ibanez are the only company in the guitar building world, other than tiny independent luthiers, who actually build their own bridges. Floyd rose, Gotoh, Schaller, TOMS, Kahlers, even Tonepros. The one thing they have in common is they build bridges and hardware that is used in other peoples guitars primarily. Only FR actually build guitars at all out of those. Compare this to Ibanez. Ibanez have patented the ZR trem using a tension bar and ball bearings. They have heavily redesigned and improved on floyd rose designs to produce the Edge, Edge Pro, Edge II, Edge III, and newer ZR style edge trems. They are the only company who build a floating bridge with an inbuilt intonation tool (A system which is far more accurate and easy than setting intonation on a floyd bridge). They make the gibraltar bridges, fixed bridge versions of the Edge, as seen on mick thomsons RG. Along with this, as far as I know, they were the first company to use a retention bar after the locking nut to improve tuning stability. They patented the All Access Neck Joint that EVERY guitar company has had to catch up to or ignore. They have developed a style of fret dressing on their J custom series, where the ends of the frets are made perfectly round and smooth. No other company offers this. The Wizard Neck is still held by many to be the best neck ever made. They are the only company I know of who offer a fully chromed body guitar, or a mirror top that isnt a flat top (Something they ran many many many tests onto avoid crazing of the upper body bout), they contract Dimarzio to build pickups for their prestige lines, as opposed to other manufacturers own brand pickups which almost universally suck, they are hands down most diverse guitar company EVER when it comes to finishing options, having used veneers, laser etching, swirls, chrome, graphics, tung oil, gloss, trans, satin, carved tops, archtops, figured poplar and bubinga, puzzle patterns, glitters, pearlescent paint on things like the xiphos, etc. Only company to offer guitars with integrated grips for stage shows. Guitar company of choice for the worlds most prominent Sustainer user. Only company to offer anything even remotely like the Jem 20th, which is an acrylic body with integrated LEDs and swirls of paint. The Jem 10th used engraved stainless steel. Worlds first production 7 string. Worlds first 7 string tremolo system. Thats pretty damn innovative for one company. |
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I always get that, but no. I just take my choice in guitars very seriously, so I read up on things a lot and talk to a lot of luthiers.
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GuitarBizarre>>>> I came across something for you to cream your knickers over... check it out..
Ibanez-Artist-AR500-Vintage-1981-Very-Rare |
Oh now that is NICE.
My pants just got crunchy, nice find. |
HOT DAMN i want that AR500.
am i going to get in crap for derailing this thread a bit? i'm curious about the early 70s ibanez guitars. pre-lawsuit. back when they were making clones of fenders and gibsons. i spotted a jazzmaster knockoff a while back under the name 'mansfield' but was able to learn that it was likely produced by ibanez then rebranded for sale in canada. anyone have any more info on this? GB? is $200 a deal for a knockoff of a knockoff? |
I know a lot about the tech specs of ibanez guitars, but i gotta admit collectors items and even some of their more vintage parts aren't my specialty. I suggest asking on Jemsite to be honest.
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holy quick reply haha. i'm just a sucker for junky old guitars, especially if i can find them cheap. one of these days i'll start a thread when i get in the market for another new one (been about 2 years so i'm due)
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To get back onto topic for a moment, threadstarter and anyone who is interested in buying a gibson, READ THIS.
Dinosaur Rock Guitar |
that's a good article but i really think this quote by the interviewer says it all
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they also reinforce a point i've made in any 'help me buy a guitar thread'. go to the store - IGNORE THE NAME ON THE HEADSTOCK - and try everything until you find something that feels right to your hands and ears. if i had a $1 for every time i've posted something similar i'd have my own vintage LP by now hehe i really don't think the issue is specific to gibson guitars either. the guys in the interview were obvious dyed in the wool classic-rock heads. which is fine. they knew what they were looking for in terms of tone. it's a common mistake a lot of novices make, they go for the name expecting it to have quality on par with their influences, which is rarely the case. i also really like the idea of trying out the guitar acoustically before plugging it in. with enough pedals you can make a shoelace strung over a cardboard box with a bottle cap pickup fart out the riff to smoke on the water and make it sound right, but it's hardly a good instrument. |
I've just had a conversation with a friend that enlightened me to a few things I didn't actually know also, so heres the log for you:
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you didn't know necks were held to the body by wood as thick as a finger and that les pauls were uncomfortable? no offense but i'm starting to think you haven't actually played many guitars besides a few pawn shop specials and a high end ibanez.
i've also never heard of anyone having their headstock snap off who didn't abuse their instrument prior to having it break. the plastic tuning pegs are disappointing but does it really make a huge difference as to what material you're twisting so long as the tuning machines rotate and pull the string? if you're buddy thinks the SG neckdives he'll never EVER want to try my 5 string bass hehehe |
No, if you look, its me saying that les pauls are uncomfortable. The neck joint was news to me, but i can't claim to know everything and I'll admit that set necks were never something I spent a lot of time thinking about. I'm much more familiar with different bolt on systems and neckthrough construction.
As for this guitar, it was owned by a personal friend who keeps very good care of his instruments and never gigged heavily or transported that guitar around without its hardcase. As for the plastic yes it does since the plastic strips and the peg then doesnt rotate, I've seen it happen on a couple of different SGs. As for the neckdives, I'll admit that my viper does so also, but the SG is one of the worst yet most popular guitar designs despite that fact. Also, as stated above, the only reason gibson get away with this is their name. Gibson buyers are slowly turning into a mindset where things like this are to be 'expected' on thousand dollar plus purchases. Hell, as mentioned, Jimmy Page hates his own signature model that Gibson charged tens of thousands for. |
sorry, i get confused when reading chat logs like that. i don't know why IM progs don't auto bold the users when saving a chat log.
back to the issue at hand, i still don't think it's specific to gibson or their buyers. when you can walk out of high school and into a call center for $12-$15 an hour to start, $1000 isn't 'that' big of a deal. yes, it's still serious cash, but consider how everything else in our modern economy has increased in price. LPs have been about $1000-3000 for as long as i can remember and i've been playing since 1993. the cost of manufacturing and distribution HAS gone up, and drastically in the last few years. i figure the distribution is what's really hurting them more than anything else, the increase in oil prices is going to increase the costs of obtaining materials, increase the base wage their employees will work for, and increase the cost of shipping the guitars for sale. the company has to turn a profit somehow, if the market is willing to accept it then the onus is on the consumer to determine whether or not the product is worthwhile to them. i hate saying it but $1000 is what i consider the line where mid range starts to taper off and you start to see where high end begins. i also wouldn't call the SG a popular design, aside from ESP's viper i don't ever recall seeing that design used by any other manufacturer. like the 2 guys in that interview said, if you want a great guitar you're going to have to pay the price and wait for the luthier to do his work. i have to ask it again though, WHY did your friend keep that explorer? |
He didn't...
And not to be picky, but Americans have a much more rosy view of that kind of money on a guitar. Over here in the UK its twice as much with VAT added on top, more often than not, and when guitars for less than a 5th of the price are nearly or completely flawless, you'd think it'd be a lot less common than Gibson make it. |
gonna have to disagree. money is all relative. it's all in how you chose to spend it.
having said that you guys across the pond have a COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS markup on gibsons. holy effing **** man. it's the same numbers in the price tag but in pounds instead of dollars. no wonder you're getting so pissed with their drop in quality. average les pauls at my local store run from $995.00 to about $1500. obviously more for customs or special models. but that's canadian dollars. or 500 - 750 pounds. so yeah, you guys are getting seriously gouged in the pocket. and yeah, you're goddamned right i would expect a $3000 to be flawless and immaculate. then again i doubt you'd be getting 'that' upset about some cosmetic flaws on a guitar that only cost 500 pounds or so. |
Not minor ones, hell I'd probably live with more than most if the guitar played and sounded good, but the kind of stuff gibson is letting slide really often is getting beyond a joke... if it werent for that i would have nothing against gibson. I dont like their designs too much but just like stratocasters, they have their place and I'm not going to deny it. its the insane reverence of their name coupled with the QC crap.
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not in your friends case (or that series of guitar by the looks of things) but i think overall considering the amount of product they have out there the vast majority of the issues people will have with their instrument will be cosmetic and minor.
having said that i think it was an incredibly poor decision to have a campaign for weekly custom series guitars that they couldn't deliver properly. but it's not really up to me to decide whether or not gibson wants to tarnish their name. |
That guitar has a myrsterious hole by the neck pickup route. As shown by similar holes on another guitar I posted, that can be symptomatic of a poorly made neck joint
Then there are the 2 quotes I posted by proxy, of one person where gibson had ****ed the wiring up and it was noisy, and another where the bridge pickup wasn't even connected. There are more than just 'cosmetic' flaws with gibson. As stated in that original article, Gibson seem to pay much more attention to the looks than anything else when it comes to QC. |
right, but you're trying to paint their entire brand as shoddy based on a screenshots of 2 guitars and a couple of forum posts. consider the thousands of guitars they produce over a year. the big screw ups will be griped about online. the lesser ones, not so much.
should i flip out and start a thread because there's a blob of paint that's a little thicker around the edge of the binding on my ESP? of course not. while it's unfortunate your friend chose to get himself a bad model (as opposed to just ending up with a bad guitar) it's not like you're seeing routing issues on every gibson in the shop. ideally it shouldn't happen. realistically it's how large corporations have developed over the last few decades. it's most definitely not specific to gibson or instrument manufacturers. people want it NOW they don't want to wait for quality, hell most people don't want to wait until they can afford it. a SMALL minority still do, but as i've said before. if you want real quality, you'll have to pay the price and be patient. |
Except I'm not talking about just 2 guitars, I'm talking about many, many guitars, that I have both seen and played from across 3 decdes of Gibson. Gibsons on every single one have consistently failed to meet a quality level equal to the pricetag of the guitar, at best, and at worst have created instruments that are either flawed, unreliable, or downright terrible.
To be honest, I think it speaks volumes that out of all the LPs I've ever played the best one of them all was an Epiphone. Like I said, I'm not trying to turn this into me flaming gibson at every turn, but the fact is that gibson are one of the largest guitar companies in the world and their guitars have a reputation as being incredible. They are therefore PRICED ACCORDINGLY. So, given the price, the gigantic capabilities of gibson, and their reputation, why is it that I can play Ibanez, Epiphones, Gibsons, fenders, LTD and all manner of other guitars, yet out of all of them, the only ones that have consistently been either flawed or substandard have been the gibsons? I understand I seem like I'm just spouting gibson hate, but the point isn't whether or not guitar companies make mistakes, they do, Ibanez have, schecter have LTD and ESP do, as do everyone else. But then again, why is it Ibanez, jackson and the others can consistently produce guitars of a single good quality level while gibson seemingly cannot, even on guitars they're actively promoting? These are not growing pains or company expansion, this is laziness. |
yeah, but like i said it's how very large corporations function in today's economy. what you're getting at has little to do with the actual product. the difference between gibson and the companies you list is scale. it's not an excuse, it's just why. at this point i think you're right in stating that the best thing about a gibson is it's name and little else. but i'm also positive that if ESP/LTD tried to accommodate as much of the market as gibson does their guitars would be just as messy if not way worse.
the thing is, much in the same way that the vast majority of guitarists are illiterate when it comes to reading actual music; most guitar players are ignorant to the gear they use. gibson knows this, and the public accepts it. it's the same logic i use to validate britney spears and her ilk's 'careers'. it's a buyer beware market, always has, always will be. |
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On the other hand we have Gibson, who have produced signature models for guitarists who no longer play Gibson or are dead, (Judas priest, Hendrix), who have produced signature models to exacting specifications costing thousands, which the artist themselves hate. (Jimmy Page, Slash models) And when it comes to such a large segment of the market, maybe in terms of physical size, yes, but Ibanez and ESP both produce far more varied products, including double locking trems, fixed bridges, hollow bodies, semi hollow, jazz boxes, acoustics, electrics in a range of styles from conservative to the extreme, multiple exhaustive finishing options, set necks bolt ons and neckthroughs available at most if not all pricepoints, a TRUE CUSTOM SHOP as opposed to Gibsons 'We'll make you a guitar with your choice of colour but we're not changin anything else for you' excuse for a custom shop, etc etc. As you say, the only difference is scale, but its not like Ibby or Fender are tiny companies...hell, Ibanez is big enough to invest serious time and money into the development of a single finish, let alone the vast numbers of completely self made bridges and other hardware, and the only complaints I hear about recent Ibanez guitars is that they're not using the original wizard neck anymore, which is more preference than flaw. |
but now you're forgetting the issue of target market.
ibanez guitars are mainly sold to metal and shredder types, technical musicians. gibsons want to sell their guitars to middle aged fogeys who want to relive their youth and 'totally nail that rocking solo in stairway'. one demographic wants a technical instrument the other wants a new belt buckle and you can be guaranteed the manufacturer knows this. which is why ibanez usually doesn't ship garbage but doesn't always lend itself as well to other styles. although their new models i noticed recently seem to be a lot more accommodating. speaking of awesome finishes - ESP's vintage black is WAY nicer in person than any pic. |
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