Reverb tips

Guybrush · 08-14-2018, 07:36 AM

Hey guys,

I've discussed convolution (room) reverb with a couple of guys in the band a bit (I generally mix our music). We generally use acoustic instruments like guitars and concertinas. I have my way of doing things which they thought seemed a little cumbersome - which it is, but I feel like I get good, authentic-sounding results.

It made me wonder, am I doing something others don't?

What I basically do reverb-wise is this:

Set up a (wet) reverb bus that I send tracks to pre-fader so that whatever I do with the volume fader on those tracks, it doesn't affect what goes into the reverb. If I use VST-instruments, I disable any built-in reverb they may have and instead send them to the same room reverb bus.

Now, if I solo a track and continually reduce the fader, the sound of the track will fade while the reverb stays the way it is, making it seem like that instrument or vocal is moving further back in the room.

My philosophy is basically this: The same room reverb for all tracks gives the impression that all instruments are in the same room (may be desirable). Also, if you could isolate the sound of the room, it wouldn't matter so much where in the room any one instrument was. Sound waves travel about 350 meters per second and quickly fill a room. Even if you're far away from an instrument, it still makes the same amount of noise in the room. Hence, even if you want to reduce the level of an instrument in your mix, that doesn't automatically mean you should reduce the sound of it in the room (the reverb bus). For a real world comparison, think of being alone in the subway and someone walks towards you, whistling. Coming from some way away, you would mostly hear the "reverb" of the whistling before the person got closer. In that sort of space, the reverb could be loud even if the source was relatively far away. If the room was dead, then it'd be a different story, but in this situation we're generally not talking / modelling very dead spaces.

Sounds coming from far away need to be EQed more too, perhaps being more narrow/niche.

This is basically my starting point, then I of course try to make the mixing decisions that sound good from there (whatever they are).

After looking around a bit, I find some people recommending other things, sometimes the opposite of what I do - for example that using different kinds of reverb give professional results (I find it can become less cohesive).

So what do you guys do?

Lisnaholic · 08-14-2018, 07:52 AM

tore!

You are posting again after a long absence! What a pity I don't have a clue what you're asking about

Guybrush · 08-14-2018, 08:14 AM

Hi Lisnaholic!

Well, since I left MB, I got me a home studio and try to do music production on the side (definitely on the side since I am a full-time working parent). I was a little curious about how MB fares and thought that I now have new knowledge and interests I potentially could discuss here. Although I am a member of more production-oriented communities, I thought I'd try and give MB a spin with my reverb question for old time's sake.

I don't expect to hang around as my reasons for leaving back then still seem valid today, but of course I'll stick around for any production tips I might get from Freebase Dali and others.

Lisnaholic · 08-14-2018, 08:51 AM

Well, I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying the thrills and spills of parenting. Being the father of a young child is an experience you will never forget, and it's daunting to think that your child will never forget either: you are going to be somewhere in his/her head forever. That's why we have to do it right if we can.

Yes, MB continues much as before. The dwindling membership you predicted has become a reality, but this is apparently happening to all other internet forums too. In connection with that, Freebase Dali hasn't posted for a long time: let's see if he will return in honour of your presence!!

Guybrush · 08-15-2018, 03:19 AM

This is very off-topic - and in my own thread - but..

Having been a forum user for almost 20 years now, I've seen forums come and go. They are certainly under pressure from disruptive forces, both internal and external. Even without the pressures from other social media platforms, many communities tend to become internal and closed in over time unless they are properly moderated and and have a decent influx / turnover of members. Once you get a sort of exclusive culture going (rather than an inclusive one), you get a negative feedback loop where everyone who finds that culture disagreeable eventually leaves, making the culture even stronger, which then further isolates the community from new, potential members.

It's happened to MB, but even before I came here I saw the exact same thing happen to another board where I was a moderator. So many members resist the kind of efforts and changes needed to keep a forum healthy because they're short-sighted, generally just want freedom and don't see the inner workings of the community on a bigger scale. I always tried to see the bigger picture and promote the kind of things that I thought were necessary to keep a community thriving, but the people who would generally agree with me left over time. I think that when MB needed those efforts/changes the most, there wasn't enough support among its users anymore. So for an online community to thrive, it seems important to have systems in place early on to prevent the kind of culture that will make it closed in and less relevant/attractive from the outside.

But of course that's not MB's only problem. It's still running on vbulletin from 2004 which is even more impractical now that people use smart phones. A forum isn't attractive to the outside world when it is so obviously forgotten by its owners. Without their support, any effort to improve the community would be a constant uphill battle.

I'd recommend those who are left here that they migrate, either to an existing forum or to a new one paid for and owned by one of you guys (it's cheap and easy) where at least one would have some control over the forum software. Getting there might be like trying to herd cats, though.

adidasss · 08-15-2018, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

This is very off-topic - and in my own thread - but..

Having been a forum user for almost 20 years now, I've seen forums come and go. They are certainly under pressure from disruptive forces, both internal and external. Even without the pressures from other social media platforms, many communities tend to become internal and closed in over time unless they are properly moderated and and have a decent influx / turnover of members. Once you get a sort of exclusive culture going (rather than an inclusive one), you get a negative feedback loop where everyone who finds that culture disagreeable eventually leaves, making the culture even stronger, which then further isolates the community from new, potential members.

It's happened to MB, but even before I came here I saw the exact same thing happen to another board where I was a moderator. So many members resist the kind of efforts and changes needed to keep a forum healthy because they're short-sighted, generally just want freedom and don't see the inner workings of the community on a bigger scale. I always tried to see the bigger picture and promote the kind of things that I thought were necessary to keep a community thriving, but the people who would generally agree with me left over time. I think that when MB needed those efforts/changes the most, there wasn't enough support among its users anymore. So for an online community to thrive, it seems important to have systems in place early on to prevent the kind of culture that will make it closed in and less relevant/attractive from the outside.

But of course that's not MB's only problem. It's still running on vbulletin from 2004 which is even more impractical now that people use smart phones. A forum isn't attractive to the outside world when it is so obviously forgotten by its owners. Without their support, any effort to improve the community would be a constant uphill battle.

I'd recommend those who are left here that they migrate, either to an existing forum or to a new one paid for and owned by one of you guys (it's cheap and easy) where at least one would have some control over the forum software. Getting there might be like trying to herd cats, though.

I have to say, having been away for some 3 years now, and not really posting much since 2010, I can't really see that much of a difference in activity between then and now? Maybe this place had it's heyday somewhere in between but what I found most surprising nowadays is that it, somehow, improbably, still has members and is actually quite active.

I haven't tried other forums so I don't know how much a new and improved software enhances the experience, but I think this method of communicating really doesn't require much more than what we've already got here (I really don't mind not being able to scroll through this place on my smartphone).

What I would be most sad about actually in case of this idea of moving, is that a large part of my online history would be gone with it. That's something that happened to me on another forum, which didn't bother keeping old archives, and I still haven't gotten over it since I shared some really important moments of my past there that I would have liked to revisit.

What I've found, actually, is that people (apparently, and I'm obviously one of them), despite of a slew of new social media options, still have a need to have more in depth conversations with other people and to form communities, and I think the best way to do that still is via online forums.

So, hopefully musicbanter will keep going for the next 50 years, even if it's in this format forever and ever, at some point, it'll probably become retro or at the least a curio, a blast from the bast, to see something like this still existing (and hopefully functioning). I'd love to come here in 20 years time and go through my old posts and remind myself of all those things that my poor old brain was too small to remember...

Here's to musicbanter, still existing, in whichever form, for a long time to come...

P.s. Nice to see you again...

Guybrush · 08-15-2018, 05:39 AM

Hi adidasss, long time!

It would definitely be sad to see all that posting history go. It's easy to migrate a database containing all threads & posts to a new forum, but indeed that would require some help from Yac / owners and - unless things have changed, I personally don't see that happening. If they were willing to get that involved with the technical side of things, they might as well update this site.

Regarding forums in general, I am a member of several and to me it seems that those which thrive the most (are most active) tend to have meaningful discussions that are on topic and make sense to outsiders. For example, posts generally add meaning to a discussion which doesn't stray off topic to be about some internal drama between members or going-ons in the community (which an outsider wouldn't "get" anyways).

It takes a lot of moderation to keep forums like that and I genuinely get that not all people enjoy that kind of moderated environment. It would actually make sense that MB today is mostly made up of people who don't like that and who are happy to stay a small, tight, internal community, even if that means there's going to be less participants over time and that the site will become less relevant in the bigger scope of online music discussions. That's a completely legit opinion to have too and I respect that.

What could still be an issue to any user is - how far can you trust the owners? They're the ones who manage all those posts and threads that we care about. Do you know they're gonna take care of it in a good way? That's the kind of question which increasingly bothered me when I was an active user here. It seemed to me like it could all be gone one day. So, I still have backups in text format of some of my posts here (reviews and guides).

It seems ironic that as a community becomes so entrenched and so tightly knit - everyone knows everyone - that they shouldn't also want ownership and more control of the very platform that enables them to get together.

~~[MERIT]~~ · 08-15-2018, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I'd recommend those who are left here that they migrate, either to an existing forum or to a new one paid for and owned by one of you guys (it's cheap and easy) where at least one would have some control over the forum software. Getting there might be like trying to herd cats, though.

That is a great idea

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss

I have to say, having been away for some 3 years now, and not really posting much since 2010, I can't really see that much of a difference in activity between then and now? Maybe this place had it's heyday somewhere in between but what I found most surprising nowadays is that it, somehow, improbably, still has members and is actually quite active.

I haven't tried other forums so I don't know how much a new and improved software enhances the experience, but I think this method of communicating really doesn't require much more than what we've already got here (I really don't mind not being able to scroll through this place on my smartphone).

What I would be most sad about actually in case of this idea of moving, is that a large part of my online history would be gone with it. That's something that happened to me on another forum, which didn't bother keeping old archives, and I still haven't gotten over it since I shared some really important moments of my past there that I would have liked to revisit.

What I've found, actually, is that people (apparently, and I'm obviously one of them), despite of a slew of new social media options, still have a need to have more in depth conversations with other people and to form communities, and I think the best way to do that still is via online forums.

So, hopefully musicbanter will keep going for the next 50 years, even if it's in this format forever and ever, at some point, it'll probably become retro or at the least a curio, a blast from the bast, to see something like this still existing (and hopefully functioning). I'd love to come here in 20 years time and go through my old posts and remind myself of all those things that my poor old brain was too small to remember...

Here's to musicbanter, still existing, in whichever form, for a long time to come...

P.s. Nice to see you again...

I think each member has their own version/definition of Musicbanter's "glory days."

Guybrush · 08-15-2018, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [MERIT]

That is a great idea

I've brought it up in the past too (like so many other things), but it didn't take. Times might be different now, though.

I remember that Yac did not like that kind of talk.

Lisnaholic · 08-15-2018, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I've brought it up in the past too (like so many other things), but it didn't take. Times might be different now, though.

^ TBH, I don't think the response would be any different today, because of your own great and graphic image:-

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I'd recommend those who are left here that they migrate, either to an existing forum or to a new one paid for and owned by one of you guys (it's cheap and easy) where at least one would have some control over the forum software. Getting there might be like trying to herd cats, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I remember that Yac did not like that kind of talk.

^ In the ancient Japanese game of Go there is a tactic called The Death Blow From Within. That's probably how Yac saw you, tore!

08-14-2018, 07:36 AM	#1 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	Reverb tips Hey guys, I've discussed convolution (room) reverb with a couple of guys in the band a bit (I generally mix our music). We generally use acoustic instruments like guitars and concertinas. I have my way of doing things which they thought seemed a little cumbersome - which it is, but I feel like I get good, authentic-sounding results. It made me wonder, am I doing something others don't? What I basically do reverb-wise is this: Set up a (wet) reverb bus that I send tracks to pre-fader so that whatever I do with the volume fader on those tracks, it doesn't affect what goes into the reverb. If I use VST-instruments, I disable any built-in reverb they may have and instead send them to the same room reverb bus. Now, if I solo a track and continually reduce the fader, the sound of the track will fade while the reverb stays the way it is, making it seem like that instrument or vocal is moving further back in the room. My philosophy is basically this: The same room reverb for all tracks gives the impression that all instruments are in the same room (may be desirable). Also, if you could isolate the sound of the room, it wouldn't matter so much where in the room any one instrument was. Sound waves travel about 350 meters per second and quickly fill a room. Even if you're far away from an instrument, it still makes the same amount of noise in the room. Hence, even if you want to reduce the level of an instrument in your mix, that doesn't automatically mean you should reduce the sound of it in the room (the reverb bus). For a real world comparison, think of being alone in the subway and someone walks towards you, whistling. Coming from some way away, you would mostly hear the "reverb" of the whistling before the person got closer. In that sort of space, the reverb could be loud even if the source was relatively far away. If the room was dead, then it'd be a different story, but in this situation we're generally not talking / modelling very dead spaces. Sounds coming from far away need to be EQed more too, perhaps being more narrow/niche. This is basically my starting point, then I of course try to make the mixing decisions that sound good from there (whatever they are). After looking around a bit, I find some people recommending other things, sometimes the opposite of what I do - for example that using different kinds of reverb give professional results (I find it can become less cohesive). So what do you guys do? __________________ Something Completely Different Last edited by Guybrush; 08-16-2018 at 06:28 AM.

08-14-2018, 07:52 AM	#2 (permalink)
Lisnaholic ...here to hear... Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: He lives on Love Street Posts: 4,444	tore! You are posting again after a long absence! What a pity I don't have a clue what you're asking about __________________ "Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

08-14-2018, 08:14 AM	#3 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	Hi Lisnaholic! Well, since I left MB, I got me a home studio and try to do music production on the side (definitely on the side since I am a full-time working parent). I was a little curious about how MB fares and thought that I now have new knowledge and interests I potentially could discuss here. Although I am a member of more production-oriented communities, I thought I'd try and give MB a spin with my reverb question for old time's sake. I don't expect to hang around as my reasons for leaving back then still seem valid today, but of course I'll stick around for any production tips I might get from Freebase Dali and others. __________________ Something Completely Different

08-14-2018, 08:51 AM	#4 (permalink)
Lisnaholic ...here to hear... Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: He lives on Love Street Posts: 4,444	Well, I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying the thrills and spills of parenting. Being the father of a young child is an experience you will never forget, and it's daunting to think that your child will never forget either: you are going to be somewhere in his/her head forever. That's why we have to do it right if we can. Yes, MB continues much as before. The dwindling membership you predicted has become a reality, but this is apparently happening to all other internet forums too. In connection with that, Freebase Dali hasn't posted for a long time: let's see if he will return in honour of your presence!! __________________ "Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

08-15-2018, 03:19 AM	#5 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	This is very off-topic - and in my own thread - but.. Having been a forum user for almost 20 years now, I've seen forums come and go. They are certainly under pressure from disruptive forces, both internal and external. Even without the pressures from other social media platforms, many communities tend to become internal and closed in over time unless they are properly moderated and and have a decent influx / turnover of members. Once you get a sort of exclusive culture going (rather than an inclusive one), you get a negative feedback loop where everyone who finds that culture disagreeable eventually leaves, making the culture even stronger, which then further isolates the community from new, potential members. It's happened to MB, but even before I came here I saw the exact same thing happen to another board where I was a moderator. So many members resist the kind of efforts and changes needed to keep a forum healthy because they're short-sighted, generally just want freedom and don't see the inner workings of the community on a bigger scale. I always tried to see the bigger picture and promote the kind of things that I thought were necessary to keep a community thriving, but the people who would generally agree with me left over time. I think that when MB needed those efforts/changes the most, there wasn't enough support among its users anymore. So for an online community to thrive, it seems important to have systems in place early on to prevent the kind of culture that will make it closed in and less relevant/attractive from the outside. But of course that's not MB's only problem. It's still running on vbulletin from 2004 which is even more impractical now that people use smart phones. A forum isn't attractive to the outside world when it is so obviously forgotten by its owners. Without their support, any effort to improve the community would be a constant uphill battle. I'd recommend those who are left here that they migrate, either to an existing forum or to a new one paid for and owned by one of you guys (it's cheap and easy) where at least one would have some control over the forum software. Getting there might be like trying to herd cats, though. __________________ Something Completely Different

08-15-2018, 05:39 AM	#7 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	Hi adidasss, long time! It would definitely be sad to see all that posting history go. It's easy to migrate a database containing all threads & posts to a new forum, but indeed that would require some help from Yac / owners and - unless things have changed, I personally don't see that happening. If they were willing to get that involved with the technical side of things, they might as well update this site. Regarding forums in general, I am a member of several and to me it seems that those which thrive the most (are most active) tend to have meaningful discussions that are on topic and make sense to outsiders. For example, posts generally add meaning to a discussion which doesn't stray off topic to be about some internal drama between members or going-ons in the community (which an outsider wouldn't "get" anyways). It takes a lot of moderation to keep forums like that and I genuinely get that not all people enjoy that kind of moderated environment. It would actually make sense that MB today is mostly made up of people who don't like that and who are happy to stay a small, tight, internal community, even if that means there's going to be less participants over time and that the site will become less relevant in the bigger scope of online music discussions. That's a completely legit opinion to have too and I respect that. What could still be an issue to any user is - how far can you trust the owners? They're the ones who manage all those posts and threads that we care about. Do you know they're gonna take care of it in a good way? That's the kind of question which increasingly bothered me when I was an active user here. It seemed to me like it could all be gone one day. So, I still have backups in text format of some of my posts here (reviews and guides). It seems ironic that as a community becomes so entrenched and so tightly knit - everyone knows everyone - that they shouldn't also want ownership and more control of the very platform that enables them to get together. __________________ Something Completely Different