Midi or Real melodies?

Ricochet~kun · 06-28-2009, 01:24 PM

my and my freind combatplayer were talking on Skype... and we seemed to have an unusual disagreement. weather or not MIDI files can best a real musician. its not about sound (real intruments always beat synths) its about how perfect you can make the music. heres how it is:

combatplayer's argument: Midi notes can be sliced indefinitely small and still be perfectly on, 100% every time.
exact quote form out conversation:

Quote:

if u buy a pro program then u can zoom eternely into it and move the sampels a 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 part of a split second if u want..

Quote:

i made it do 3/4 as the most odd one.. but.. if u acturly know ur FL u will notice that u dont HAVE to use the grind.. simply remove the locks n pley on with no limits

me: Midi notes may be more acurate, but when you make it 100% acuate then that kills the natural beauty of music.
exact quote:

Quote:

i mean if you wnat to you can add suspence by stretching a meansure a split second longer than it should go and still reach the 4/4 limit (one example)

Quote:

yep and it makes it that much better
because your song itsnt stuck to a grid

and my key argument is this:
YouTube - Eddie Van Halen- Eruption (Live 1998) Toronto
im fairly sure you cant make a melody like that using midi files, no matter how skilled you are or how lovely your program is.

what do you guys think?

**Janszoon** · 06-28-2009, 01:34 PM

I think they're just two different things that have different strengths and different weaknesses. Neither is better than the other.

Stone Birds · 06-28-2009, 01:47 PM

i sometimes like to mix them, but as different instruments ex: Guitar - G G A D D E (repeat) with a similar MIDI piano synth in the same chords but not on the exact same time of the guitar. (also, for guitar its just down strum.)

Freebase Dali · 06-28-2009, 04:42 PM

I think you don't know exactly what MIDI is and what it's used for.

MIDI notes are simply impulses used to trigger a sound at any note. MIDI can be used in different ways:

1. You can use a MIDI keyboard to play a soft-synth or virtual piano, which except for the choice of sounds you're triggering, is exactly like playing a piano in terms of humanization because you're physically playing the keys.

2. You can use a MIDI editor to program or sequence soft-synths, or a hardware synthesizer, or drum program, or sampler, whatever.
Say if I had a virtual piano program that sounds exactly like a real piano (they're out there) and instead of using a MIDI keyboard to play, say, a known piano piece, I wanted to replicate it perfectly.
Although it would take a long time, you could use a MIDI editor to sequence the notes in their exactness of the original and control everything from note length to velocity.
If you disable quantization in the MIDI editor, this means you can place the notes anywhere, and not be limited to 16ths, 32nds, 64ths, etc. Being able to do that allows you to humanize your sequence to make it (im)perfect. You'd can change the velocity of the notes as well, because no one plays piano keys at all the same exact velocity (or strike intensity, if you prefer)

MIDI editors most certainly allow you to create a human sounding piece, whether the notes are triggering a virtual piano, virtual drums, etc. Whether it's better than actual human playing is subjective.
But, while most of may not be able to physically play outstanding piano pieces, you can definitely MIDI program them well enough that no one would notice the difference.

Most people who aren't savvy on computer music production aspects often hear a MIDI file and think "gee, that sounds like crap"... But that's not what MIDI is for. The actual MIDI notes are just representations of the key in which the sound to be triggered will be in.
If you obtain a GOOD midi file of, say, a Beethoven piece, and route it in a music program so that it triggers a GOOD virtual piano, it will sound like someone is playing that Beethoven piece.

It's the same concept as those pianos that have the MIDI box on them and when loaded with a MIDI file, the piano plays itself according to the MIDI song.

Either way, the original post is talking about preciseness of MIDI editing, and it's true, you can be deadly accurate in the editing to mimic humanized playing... It's not all just techno sequences and metronomes.
But, obviously, you're not going to be able to create a MIDI sequence that is able to replicate things that guitars can do that require a human interaction.

GuitarBizarre · 06-28-2009, 04:54 PM

Kwakfest MIDI: Virt - World's Most Wanted Wiener on Vimeo

This is midi.

Also, it was played live on keyboard for most parts.

Ricochet~kun · 06-28-2009, 04:59 PM

i know what Midi is

Quote:

2. You can use a MIDI editor to program or sequence soft-synths, or a hardware synthesizer, or drum program, or sampler, whatever.
Say if I had a virtual piano program that sounds exactly like a real piano (they're out there) and instead of using a MIDI keyboard to play, say, a known piano piece, I wanted to replicate it perfectly.
Although it would take a long time, you could use a MIDI editor to sequence the notes in their exactness of the original and control everything from note length to velocity.
If you disable quantization in the MIDI editor, this means you can place the notes anywhere, and not be limited to 16ths, 32nds, 64ths, etc. Being able to do that allows you to humanize your sequence to make it (im)perfect. You'd can change the velocity of the notes as well, because no one plays piano keys at all the same exact velocity (or strike intensity, if you prefer)

this is what im referring to when i say MIDI. my MIDI sequencer is FL7, but combatplayer uses FL8 (he gave me his fl7 when he upgraded =P)

Freebase Dali · 06-28-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

Kwakfest MIDI: Virt - World's Most Wanted Wiener on Vimeo

This is midi.

Also, it was played live on keyboard for most parts.

That may be midi programming, but they sure didn't pick any good sounds to trigger.

GuitarBizarre · 06-28-2009, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veridical Fiction

That may be midi programming, but they sure didn't pick any good sounds to trigger.

I disagree. Its a great example of how even the GM patch banks can sound great. (This was done with the GM patches on a Motif, according to Snappleman)

----------------
Now playing on Winamp: Jethro Tull - Budapest
via FoxyTunes

Freebase Dali · 06-28-2009, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

I disagree. Its a great example of how even the GM patch banks can sound great. (This was done with the GM patches on a Motif, according to Snappleman)

----------------
Now playing on Winamp: Jethro Tull - Budapest
via FoxyTunes

Well, I beg to differ because that pseudo slap-bass sound is ridiculously 80's Casio demo song-esque.

Thing is, midi functionality is more than the representative sound. Midi can trigger any sound in any synth that is responsive to midi. I don't know why people would use General Midi patch banks when there are far better sounding synths out there that can be controlled via midi.

I use MIDI editing all the time when I produce. I'd certainly not limit myself to a GM soundbank. Midi's purpose isn't the sound it makes by itself.
It's about what it allows you to do.

GuitarBizarre · 06-29-2009, 05:26 AM

I know how midi works VF, I'm just pointing out that GM can and does sound really good if you take the time.

06-28-2009, 01:34 PM	#2 (permalink)
Janszoon Mate, Spawn & Die Join Date: May 2007 Location: The Rapping Community Posts: 24,593	I think they're just two different things that have different strengths and different weaknesses. Neither is better than the other. __________________ A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man Time & Place 25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die last.fm

06-28-2009, 01:47 PM	#3 (permalink)
Stone Birds myspace.com/stonebirdies Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Conor Oberst Was/is Here Posts: 1,401	i sometimes like to mix them, but as different instruments ex: Guitar - G G A D D E (repeat) with a similar MIDI piano synth in the same chords but not on the exact same time of the guitar. (also, for guitar its just down strum.) __________________ Silk & Tree Records //\\//\\/\\/\/\/\\\\\\\\///\/\/\/\/\\////\/\\\\\///\V //\\//\\/\\/\/\/\\\\\\\\///\/\/\/\/\\////\/\\\\\///\V soundcloud.com/stonebirds [Link removed by mod, no advertising] ... Damn those mods are always gettin ya :)

06-28-2009, 04:42 PM	#4 (permalink)
Freebase Dali Partying on the inside Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,584	I think you don't know exactly what MIDI is and what it's used for. MIDI notes are simply impulses used to trigger a sound at any note. MIDI can be used in different ways: 1. You can use a MIDI keyboard to play a soft-synth or virtual piano, which except for the choice of sounds you're triggering, is exactly like playing a piano in terms of humanization because you're physically playing the keys. 2. You can use a MIDI editor to program or sequence soft-synths, or a hardware synthesizer, or drum program, or sampler, whatever. Say if I had a virtual piano program that sounds exactly like a real piano (they're out there) and instead of using a MIDI keyboard to play, say, a known piano piece, I wanted to replicate it perfectly. Although it would take a long time, you could use a MIDI editor to sequence the notes in their exactness of the original and control everything from note length to velocity. If you disable quantization in the MIDI editor, this means you can place the notes anywhere, and not be limited to 16ths, 32nds, 64ths, etc. Being able to do that allows you to humanize your sequence to make it (im)perfect. You'd can change the velocity of the notes as well, because no one plays piano keys at all the same exact velocity (or strike intensity, if you prefer) MIDI editors most certainly allow you to create a human sounding piece, whether the notes are triggering a virtual piano, virtual drums, etc. Whether it's better than actual human playing is subjective. But, while most of may not be able to physically play outstanding piano pieces, you can definitely MIDI program them well enough that no one would notice the difference. Most people who aren't savvy on computer music production aspects often hear a MIDI file and think "gee, that sounds like crap"... But that's not what MIDI is for. The actual MIDI notes are just representations of the key in which the sound to be triggered will be in. If you obtain a GOOD midi file of, say, a Beethoven piece, and route it in a music program so that it triggers a GOOD virtual piano, it will sound like someone is playing that Beethoven piece. It's the same concept as those pianos that have the MIDI box on them and when loaded with a MIDI file, the piano plays itself according to the MIDI song. Either way, the original post is talking about preciseness of MIDI editing, and it's true, you can be deadly accurate in the editing to mimic humanized playing... It's not all just techno sequences and metronomes. But, obviously, you're not going to be able to create a MIDI sequence that is able to replicate things that guitars can do that require a human interaction. __________________