VEGANGELICA

Hi, Bluesman,
Thanks for adding your vote in support of recording drums first. That does sound wise and does make sense. The way I've been recording songs so far is in reverse probably because of how I compose the songs (the drum part usually being the last for me to work on).

Here's what I've been trying to do most recently when recording a song:
(1) Concoct melody and lyrics simultaneously, then figure out guitar part.
(2) Use keyboard to play melody with metronome on (this will be deleted eventually, and just serves as my guide track).
(3) Sing lyrics with keyboard track to (try to) ensure I stay in tune and have correct timing.
(4) Record electric guitar while listening to the vocal track.
(5) Add in a new keyboard track (non-melody) in lieu of bass guitar.
(6) If I like all the above, I then record the whole shebang onto a 30-year-old tape player that belonged to my brother, and play the tape in the room where I have my drum set so I can work out the drum part. This is my favorite stage, because it means I'm almost done, plus I'm always tickled that this 30-year-old tape/radio player still works and has been with me since I was a child.
(7) Once I know what I'm going to play on the drums, I lug the drums down the hall to fill up all available space next to the computer, squeeze onto the throne, hem myself in with the cymbals, tell everyone to put in their earplugs, and record the drum track.
(8) Eventually, I plan to re-record all the tracks to improve them in a reiterative process. At that point I could start with the drums, like several of you suggest. I have not gotten to stage 8 yet, but hopefully will someday!

Thanks again for adding your suggestion!

--Erica

VEGANGELICA

Hi Freebase,
I've purchased a Shure SM58 microphone for vocals and two Kingston KTD8300/512 MB RAM 400 MHz modules (which did really cost just $26 each) and have one question before purchasing the Lexicon Lambda audio interface, which has one instrument input and one microphone input (with pre-amp).

I would like to record drums with several microphones (since everyone agreed using one microphone was pretty skimpy), so given this additional knowledge would you still recommend an audio interface that has just 1 microphone input, or would it be better to have 2 microphone inputs to allow the drums' microphone signals to be converged into two tracks rather than one? Is there much of an advantage to separating drums into two tracks vs. one? I assume if one uses 2 microphones on drums, it only makes sense to record them in separate tracks so one can alter the levels.

The reason I ask is that the first audio interface you pictured in a previous post--the M-Audio FastTrack Pro (USB)--has two instrument or microphone inputs...which may be more useful for me down the road (say in 5 years) if for some reason I want to record two instruments or two microphones at the same time.

How do people usually attach microphone cables to an audio interface when they have 2 microphones (ideally condensor type, I know) dangling overhead to left and right of drums for stereo effect, plus a mike by the bass drum and a Shure SM57 by the snare (ignoring the ideal situation in which one mikes under the snare, too, to pick up more of the snare sound)? Would they usually have the 4 microphones record into 4 tracks, or (for expense reasons--resulting in a simpler audio interface) merge them into two tracks via two microphone inputs? I would think they'd want 4 inputs.

I'm thinking that since I'd like to buy one Shure SM57 microphone for guitar and snare drum recording, then maybe I should just make it a nice even 2 x Shure SM57 microphones and then use all my 4 microphones I'd then own (none are condensor) on the drum set when I record it. Then I think perhaps instead of a second Shure SM57 microphone I should buy some microphone that would work better for the low frequences of the bass drum? And *then* I waver again and think maybe I should just pool the money into buying one condensor microphone instead of 2 less expensive microphones like the Shure SM57!

So, I thought I'd ask for advice. I have around $200 for an audio interface and $250 for microphones (beyond the Shure SM58 I have already ordered), and am not sure how best to allocate the money given that I'd like to use more than one microphone for the drums and make sure to have a microphone (like the Shure SM57) that works well miking the electric guitar amplifier.

--Erica

EDIT on 7/11:
MICROPHONES: I've been doing some more sleuthing online and around MusicBanter and have learned that the Condensor microphones MXL 990 (for vocals) and MXL 991 (for acoustic guitar and drum overhead) are highly recommended and inexpensive (package costs $80). Hmm. In the ideal world I could get two MXL 991s (for overhead condensors for drums), the Shure Beta 52A microphone (comes with own clamp) for the base drum, and a Shure SM57 for the snare drum (and alternatively for miking the electric guitar amp).

AUDIO INTERFACE: I've decided that, yes, I will want at least 2 microphone inputs (with pre-amp in case I ever get condenser microphones) on the audio interface, so that appears to rule out the Lexicon lambda and alpha, leaving me with the M-Audio audio interface options as the least expensive USB 2.0 versions. I do want the audio interface to be USB 2.0 instead of a PCI, in case I eventually get a laptop, since I've read PCI doesn't work with a laptop. I did read online that one should make sure the audio interface has at least as many microphone inputs (with pre-amps) as microphones one plans to use on the drums, so that answers my question about that!

Alas, the M-Audio Fast Track Pro (with 2 inputs that are both microphone and instrument ready) gets mixed reviews, as does the step-up from that, the much costlier M-Audio FastTrack Ultra USB 2.0 (with 6 analog inputs with 4 pre-amps...why they didn't just give all the inputs pre-amps, I don't know, other than cost!). I suspect, though, that if all reviewers had made sure the audio interfaces were compatible with their computer operating system, and had downloaded updated drivers from the company website, then their experiences with these interfaces would have been better.

An alternative audio interface I'm considering is the Tascam US-1641, which has many more analog inputs than I currently need, but is available for $315 and seems to have better reviews than the M-Audio options. Hopefully whatever hardware I end up with will be good enough to cause all drum recording latency problems to be simply due to my own timing errors !

Freebase Dali

Sorry for the neglect... I hadn't seen this.



I would definitely recommend using more than one microphone for your drums. At the very least, 2 directional condensers (overheads L/R) are going to give you a stereo drum track that should pick up most of the drum kit.
The problem with that, though, is you won't have individual control of each element of the kit, so you have to get the mic positions at their optimal best to provide an even sound-stage.

The better route is to mic each important piece. Obviously, the more microphones you use, the more inputs you'll need on your interface if you wish to retain separation for post-tracking mixing.
A typical, basic setup would be:
- 2 directional condenser microphones for overheads L/R.
- 1 dynamic mic for snare.
- 1 large diaphragm dynamic mic for kick drum (needs to be large diaphragm if you want it to pick up any low frequencies)
- 1 dynamic mic per every 2 toms. (can be used between toms to pick up signal from both)

So you're looking at maybe needing 6 microphones for your average kit.
Lucky for us, music stores sell drum microphone kits that usually include up to 8 microphones (all the right ones) and for very low prices.
The usual problem is that the microphones in those kits are sometimes not the best quality in terms of sound, so you have to investigate and weigh the price versus quality. Reviews usually help a lot. I buy all my equipment from Musiciansfriend.com and their user reviews are invaluable.
Take a cruise to the site and search for drum microphone packages and get a feel for what's available and compare user reviews.

When you have an idea of how many microphones you're willing to settle with, that's when you have the information you'll need in order to buy the correct audio interface.
The main thing you need to keep in mind is that larger audio interfaces that feature many inputs are usually Firewire based because of the high bandwidth required. If you do not have a Firewire card on your computer, you may have to buy one.
So that's another possible expense if you can't find a USB interface with the appropriate amount of inputs.

There are many different interfaces that combine features and quality at reasonable prices. Musiciansfriend.com carries a large selection of them as well, and you have the advantage of the reviews to help you decide.
If you need any advice on selecting any of the things I went over, let me know.

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Certif1ed

I only had this sort of issue with ACID when I tried to record using my laptop instead of using my main (custom built) studio tower PC.

The spec of the PC is important here - ACID 7 uses loads of resources, especially if you've got fx plugins running.

Dual Core with 4Gb RAM seems to be minimum realistic spec, despite ACID's optimistic claims of single 1.8Ghz with 1Gb RAM - and you need at least a SATA II hard disk subsystem. Your upgrade of 1GB seems pretty minimal, but should help.

The Sound interface is the single most important part - and I reckon that this is where the latency is. Spend more on that than on microphones, if your present budget is restricted. We use Motus, and they rock!

VEGANGELICA

Hey Freebase,
A belated thank you for the good advice.

Hi, Certif1ed,
Thanks for the info! I ended up buying two 1 GB RAM modules to upgrade my computer's memory by 2 GB after I became paranoid that my original plan of two 500 MB RAM modules wouldn't be enough.

I also purchased the TASCAM US-1641 audio interface which has a USB 2.0 connection so that I can easily plug it into the front of the computer (I don't have a laptop...but if I ever do get one then I could use the audio interface with it and see if latency problems emerge like you noticed with your laptop). I finally hooked my new audio interface up last week.

I feel you are right, as was Freebase Dali, that having an audio interface intended for music recording makes a big difference. So far I like the interface very much and have not noticed a latency problem, so hopefully the problem is solved!! I will be trying to record drums soon in a song that already has around 8 tracks, so when I record 4 drum tracks this should be when I'd expect to hear latency problems if they are going to occur with my new setup.

The TASCAM US-1641 audio interface has more inputs than I need right now, but I did want at least 4 microphone inputs and this audio interface seemed to meet my desires most closely of the audio interfaces I looked at on Musician's Friend and other websites. The TASCAM US-1641 has 8 inputs for microphones, 4 of them with a phantom power option. It also has two inputs for guitar (if I wished to use them), and some for MIDI (which I don't use yet)...all for a little over $300! Plus, it has a sleek, dark blue metal front panel (pretty pretty) and is flat, serving as a phone and lamp stand when not in use (they say not to put anything on it, but space is limited here, so I'm breaking the rules when I'm not using the interface--I take everything off it before I plug it in and turn it on).

It took me around 5 hours to set everything up to use the audio interface successfully: install drivers, check if they were the most up-to-date (they weren't), go to the TASCAM website and install the newest driver for the computer and the newest firmware for the interface. Then I installed the free Cubase LE 4 that came with the interface and managed to get that registered and set up so I could actually record from the correct input line to the desired track. It took me an additional 30 minutes to figure out why I heard no metronome click when I selected that option...but I finally got everything working!

Then I decided to try the audio interface with the Sony ACID Music Studio 7.0 recording program, since I had been using that before with the regular computer sound card and wanted to avoid spending a lot of time learning how to use Cubase LE 4 right now. Careful reading of the ACID Music Studio manual finally showed me how to select which microphone input would be used by the program: when you activate the track to record, an "i" shows up on that track; click on that and you can select your input bus. I had missed that one crucial sentence in the manual the first time I read it, so was perplexed for quite some time, and thus very pleased with myself when I finally realized what I needed to do to record using the TASCAM audio interface and my old Sony ACID Music Studio 7.0 program!

I am happy that now I can focus on recording music again instead of worrying about how best to record it at home with more than minimal sound quality.

Thanks for the help and suggestions, all!
--Erica

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VEGANGELICA

I have a new question for you drummers out there:

When I record my drums, I've found that the microphone attached to the high tom to record both the high and mid toms also picks up a very low vibration from the bass drum (to which the tom-toms are mounted). Is having the microphone on its own stand (not mounted on the toms) the best way to prevent this low rasp?

I have tried reducing the low frequencies in the high/mid tom recording with an EQ audio plug in, without success so far. So, I've resorted (for now) to just recording the bass drum separately (played alone). I'll plan to get a new microphone stand, but I thought I should ask first if there is another way around this problem.

Ideally, I would like to record all the drums at the same time. How do people usually avoid the low rasp of the bass drum being picked up by the microphone(s) attached to the high and mid toms?

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Freebase Dali

Short answer: Yes.

My toms aren't attached to the kick drum as they have their own stands, but even in that situation find it more than a matter of preference for all microphones to have their own stands as to reduce the effects of vibration and maximize flexibility.

If you're only having this issue with your tom mic, the easiest way will be to just buy a stand for it, or (if possible) try to attach your mic clip to anything close enough to do the job without being physically attached to the toms.

Are you recording each drum mic into individual channels in your program? If so, (and you should probably be doing the following anyway for everything but the overhead mics) you probably have a mute tool in your program that you can use on each recorded drum channel to scrub-mute out everything where the individual hits aren't, or simply use a gate on each channel and set the threshold so that only the audio that reaches it in DB will trigger the gate and pass through. (some experimentation is required, especially with release and knee parameters).

Doing this provides very tight and controlled drum channels that don't have phase issues and unwanted noise, which you can individually effect/pan/etc and mix in with your overheads to fill your sound out with clarity.

Conversely, if you're recording your drums into a single stereo channel in your program, you're far more limited and most of your tune-ups and mixing decisions will have to be done externally.

VEGANGELICA

Ahh, good...that's what I suspected. Thanks for verifying.

I hadn't realized there was a mute tool for scrubbing out...and I hadn't thought of using a gate. I was just trying to reduce frequencies by trial and error withing the EQ audio plug-in...but I hadn't set any sort of threshold. That makes sense and I will try that.

In answer to your question, I have separate mics (sp?) on the snare, floor tom, and bass drum, and a fourth microphone for the high and mid toms, plus two condensor overhead microphones. I am recording into 6 channels and *should* be able to control the sound pretty well, theoretically.

Thanks for the help!

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