Freebase Dali

^ Heh...

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SATCHMO

The moral of the story: Latency is indeed a bitch (or can be). Hit up a studio or maybe find someone with better equipment than you. Most independent engineers/producers are very gracious when it comes to helping others.

Freebase Dali

Latency problems can be solved.
I'm willing to stick with her until it is. It's always nice to have your recording options at your disposal. And it's a joy recording yourself.

But if she's simply trying to cut an album and get it out there, then yea, maybe she'd be better off connecting with someone who can record her.

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VEGANGELICA

Hi, SATCHMO and Freebase,
Ahh! You posted new messages while I was working on my last one. Thanks for your support and suggestions! I do definitely want to figure out how to improve the recordings of my songs in a home setting. For me, this doesn't mean achieving perfection, because I realize that my skills are mediocre and may always be, although this doesn't mean one can't make music that one enjoys! :-) Also, my songs are driven by the lyrics, so less-than-perfect music might be forgiven by someone who actually likes the lyrics.

However, when I listen to the recordings I have made so far, I do see ways to improve the recordings (such as with the timing issues) that I agree should be solvable. Additonal problems are the pop at the beginning and end of the recordings (I always have the microphone on and then click on the ACID record button...perhaps I need to try the reverse or edit out the pop somehow), and ACID metronome ticks that seem to always be faintly in the background when I record a track using the ACID metronome (but listening to it through earphones, so there shouldn't be any sound reaching the microphone). The quality of my instrument playing and singing is a separate area I will probably always be working on!!
--Erica

VEGANGELICA

Freebase,
Thank you for explaining high latency and how to diagnose the root(s) of the problem. I will work on getting the answers to the three questions you posed.

I wonder if it is possible that I don't have the right/best sound card? When I got the ACID program, I simply installed it, read the (not-so-helpful) manual, did the online tutorial, plugged in the microphone into the computer, and (after changing computer settings so the microphone's input actually got used by the computer), I tried doing some voice recordings (which worked). When it came time to test out the electric guitar, I discovered through my naive experimentation that connecting the amplifier output to the computer microphone jack did not work (it gave odd distorted sounds...not at all like the actual guitar sounded), and after a little reading I decided it sounded as if I was missing the appropriate "sound card," because the computer wasn't able to process correctly the electric guitar signal straight from the amplifier and guitar. Rather than solving that problem I simply fell back to using the microphone placed 2 inches from the amplifier!

It is very true that the delayed drum recording was the last track to be recorded. I like your idea of reversing the order of my track recording, with drums first, to see if the system is indeed being bogged down by having prerecorded tracks. I generally end up with around 7 tracks on the screen (with only several being used) by the time I get to the drums...so I wouldn't be surprised if that causes some delay!

Yes, you are definitely right that trying to compensate by drumming before the beat did not work, because it gave inconsistent recordings, exactly like you said! I then hoped to do just what you suggest...play in time to the music, and use the computer to nudge the tracks so that they line up to my ear...but I could not figure out a way to add time to just one track (ACID always seemed to add time to *all* the tracks). I will investigate this more, though, because a lot of my problems obviously stem from me not knowing enough about the program or the computer.

I will also try doing what you advised when recording, which was to use the metronome for recording the first track only. That makes sense, given that the goal is to have the tracks mesh with each other.

Thanks for taking the time to give such a thorough response. Your answers to people's questions are always helpful and detailed, and I am honored to have received some!

Jmhdrumm3r17, I will work on my human metronome skills!

--Erica

bluesman

I agree with ELEPHANTSACK,

You've gotta start with the foundation and work your way up.

VEGANGELICA

Hi, Bluesman,
Thanks for adding your vote in support of recording drums first. That does sound wise and does make sense. The way I've been recording songs so far is in reverse probably because of how I compose the songs (the drum part usually being the last for me to work on).

Here's what I've been trying to do most recently when recording a song:
(1) Concoct melody and lyrics simultaneously, then figure out guitar part.
(2) Use keyboard to play melody with metronome on (this will be deleted eventually, and just serves as my guide track).
(3) Sing lyrics with keyboard track to (try to) ensure I stay in tune and have correct timing.
(4) Record electric guitar while listening to the vocal track.
(5) Add in a new keyboard track (non-melody) in lieu of bass guitar.
(6) If I like all the above, I then record the whole shebang onto a 30-year-old tape player that belonged to my brother, and play the tape in the room where I have my drum set so I can work out the drum part. This is my favorite stage, because it means I'm almost done, plus I'm always tickled that this 30-year-old tape/radio player still works and has been with me since I was a child.
(7) Once I know what I'm going to play on the drums, I lug the drums down the hall to fill up all available space next to the computer, squeeze onto the throne, hem myself in with the cymbals, tell everyone to put in their earplugs, and record the drum track.
(8) Eventually, I plan to re-record all the tracks to improve them in a reiterative process. At that point I could start with the drums, like several of you suggest. I have not gotten to stage 8 yet, but hopefully will someday!

Thanks again for adding your suggestion!

--Erica

VEGANGELICA

Hi, Freebase, thank you for the information about the basic recording sound card, the MAudio Fast Track Pro (USB).

Here are answers to your questions about our computer set-up, etc.:
(1) PC SPECIFICATIONS (Dell Dimension 4600):
Processor: Pentium(R)4 CPU 2.80 GHz
Ram: 512 MB

(2) SOUND CARD:
SoundMAX Integrated Digital Audio manufactured by Analog Devices, Inc.

(3) SONY ACID MUSIC STUDIO 7.0 BUFFER SETTINGS:
A. Playback buffering (seconds)–currently is set at 0.10

B. “Automatically detect and offset for hardware recording latency” is currently selected (to automatically compensate for offset between the time you initiate recording and when your sound card starts recording). The “user recording latency offset” is thus currently set at 0. Perhaps this is what I’d need to adjust, since the automatic compensation doesn’t appear to be compensating enough?

C. “Enable Track buffering” is selected (by default), and track buffering is 0.25, and I can drag the track buffering slider if I want to adjust the amount of audio that is prerendered ahead of the cursor position (though I haven’t tried this).

D. Under “Advanced Audio Configuration,” ACID says that for “INPUT” the “microsoft sound mapper” audio device (the one the software uses by default) audio buffer is on 6.

E. Under “Advanced Audio Configuration,” ACID says that for “OUTPUT” the “microsoft sound mapper” audio device does *not* have the following box checked: “Do not pre-roll buffers before starting playback” (so I assume buffers are pre-rolled before starting playback). It says the audio buffer is on 6. The “buffer size (samples)” is on “MME” (but other options range from 64 to 16384). Finally, it says “Priority–Time Critical” (which appears to be the highest setting of the ones available). I’m not sure what all that means, but thought I’d tell you just in case it is meaningful!

F. As mentioned above, ACID by default is using an Audio Device driver type called “Microsoft Sound Mapper,” which “allows the sound mapper to choose an appropriate playback device.” Two other drivers available for use (but are not currently selected) are “Windows Classic Wave Driver” (“Allows you to choose a specific audio device using a classic wavedriver”) and “ASIO” (“Allows you to choose a specific audio device using a low-latency ASIO driver”). Low latency sounds good!

(4) OUR MICROPHONE: Highball “Dynamic Microphone Unidirectional, 33-984C, made by Realistic.” I think this is quite old (over 15 years old). It certainly isn’t a fancy microphone, but it does have that metal mesh around its ball shape to reduce problems with p’s. This microphone doesn’t seem very sensitive, because anything more than several inches away is very difficult to record...sounds very faint...which is an advantage in a home with a 6-year-old not far away playing rather rambunctiously and occasionally shrieking for fun.

(5) INSTRUMENTS: electric guitar, acoustic guitar, Casio electric keyboard WK-110 with touch response and MIDI, Mapex Qr series 5-piece drum set with hi-hat and crash/ride (plus a splash I haven't set up), violin, tenor recorder, flute, trombone(!), and voice. My musical background is in classical violin.

I hope this provides you with the information you need to see if you have some recommendations in addition to the Maudio Fast Track Pro sound card that might be useful for us. Also, if these recommendations are similar to ones you gave someone in a previous thread, please just let me know so that you don’t have to type out everything again (or cut and paste) for yet another person! I really do appreciate you taking time to help me with this issue and share your knowledge. –Erica

Freebase Dali

Thanks for putting that info together, Erica.
I'll do this in the order of your list.


(1) Computer specs
Your processor speed is ok. I'm not going to say you wouldn't benefit from dual core or higher, but we're not trying to build you a gaming computer. You should do fine with your processor's handling of Acid.

Your RAM, however, needs some help. Even if you didn't record on your computer, you'd be far better off with at LEAST 1 gig of RAM. But especially (and this ties into your latency problems) that you record on your computer, you can be sure that a good portion of your issues are a result of only having 512MB of RAM.
Recommendation:
Since your computer (and I checked) has 2 sticks of 256MB RAM, it'd be best for you to buy two (of the same type) sticks of 512. You have four DIMM slots, but I didn't look into your motherboards' specs to determine whether your computer is equipped to handle more than 1 or 2 gigs of RAM. I venture to say you could handle 2 gigs, but I don't see you needing more than a gig for your specific application. I'd recommend 2 gigs, but I think you could get away with 1. Either way, two 512MB sticks are dirt cheap. But if you want reliability, look into Corsair or Kingston. Just make sure that the type of RAM is the same as the RAM in your computer, which you should check before buying more RAM. (See notes at the end regarding technical questions)

(2) Sound Card:
7 letters: UPGRADE.
It's not a question... you WILL benefit from having a recording dedicated sound card. After looking around, this is probably the best decision for you:
Lexicon - Lambada
If you're looking to pay something less, then you could always grab one of these:
Lexicon - Alpha
Thing is, you're obviously not trying to outfit yourself with a high-end studio. You just need gear that's going to allow you to do what you need to do without any problems, and still do it better. The above two options will do that, and they do it very cheaply. I spent a lousy 600 dollars on my audio interface, but honestly, I barely use half of its capability. I would advise that you get what you need, regardless of any other audio snobs who may scoff at the notion that you'd buy anything but the best and most expensive gear available.

(3) Settings:
B. No, don't worry about this. It's basically delay compensation and it is crap if it's totally relied on. Since you'll hopefully be getting an acceptable sound card and upping your RAM, this shouldn't be an issue. Even if you were to experiment with delay compensation, and you might get ok results, you're going to be hard pressed to get consistent ones, because delay compensation only works well when it's not in constant demand. And of course, it relies on your RAM, so just leave it is for now.

C. Track Buffering simply means that it will store the track audio in a particular amount of RAM so that your playback of them is more smooth and with less drop-outs. Obviously this is a situation you'd need to think about. Which is more important, Quicker operation and results? Or smoother playback of audio?
You'll find that if you increase the number on the buffer slider, you'll get less audio drop-outs and more consistent audio (but this only relates to playback, aka, you monitoring it... NOT the actual recording).
If you decrease the number on the buffer slider, you'll have less latency when recording into the tracks, and you'll have less delay between actions composed via MIDI and especially between recorded audio and MIDI programmed synthesizers and drums in the program.

F. Microsoft Sound Mapper is a disgustingly horrible excuse for a sound driver. So is the other one. Choose ASIO. It's the standard. ASIO drivers, which you apparently have, are usually the best reacting drivers with most of today's DAWs. Sony's Acid should have no problem utilizing ASIO. But really it's not up to Acid, it's up to your sound-card. I can't speak for yours, but if you get a recording sound card, you'll want to use ASIO, no doubt.

(4) Microphone:
I won't get into a big spiel about the importance of quality microphones, but you obviously need something that will be able to effectively pick up close vocals without picking up too much of the background. The industry standard is a Shure SM58. Not extremely expensive, but it will last you a lifetime. Look into that. Plus, it's dynamic, so you don't have to worry about phantom powering or anything like that. It would be completely compatible with the sound-cards I mentioned. (as they have their own pre-amps)

(5) Other:
Looks like you've got a lot of other sources waiting to be recorded. But you apparently know the concept of tracking, so just to let ya know, you can record all your instruments with the simple setup I've outlined.
You might eventually outgrow Acid, but for the time being, it will allow you to achieve what you're trying to achieve.

I hope this has been helpful.
Also, if you have any technical questions regarding the purchase or installation of particular computer parts related to my recommendations, please do not hesitate to ask.

Thanks,
J.

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VEGANGELICA

Freebase, thank you very much for all your suggestions, which we will use, such as getting 1 or perhaps 2 (if that works with our system) sticks of RAM that match our current ones, purchasing a Shure SM58 microphone, and a sound card intended for recording music. If I were wearing a hat like Obama, I'd tip it to show my gratitude! Truly, thank you. --Erica