The English Football Thread

[Nurse Duckett]

It would be nice to see the Arsenal win the Prem, its been a while since a football club won it hasnt it.

[Cuthbert]

Originally Posted by Nurse Duckett

If he ends up at Chelsea I'll be very disappointed, I know he isn't the sharpest tool in the box but I've never had him down as a shallow wanker, and you have to be incredibly shallow to even consider playing for Chelsea.

This was true at one point but it's not anymore. Chelsea, sadly, have bought their way to 'big club' status. They've won trophies and a lot of players will want to work with Mourinho.

Players see football clubs as jobs and joining Chelsea has great job prospects. It's the same at City now but to a lesser extent. Players like Adebayor and Robinho obviously only joined for the money but these clubs (Chelsea & City) have won trophies and leagues now.

I've got a feeling Rooney will join Chelsea, just can't picture him at Arsenal at all. And if United are going to sell him they had better do it now because his value is only going to go down from here. If I was a buying club I would lower my bid after Moyes' interview. It is absolutely clear that Rooney still wants to leave. Being asked specifically if Rooney wants to stay and responding, 'I can categorically say... he is training well', is a big fat no.

In hindsight they should have fucked him off after the first time he asked to leave.

[Nurse Duckett]

I see all this "big club" talk as Sky TV rhetoric. In the real world there are at least a dozen big football clubs in England.

I believe that the sky years will be ignored in years to come, a little bit like the world cup before the 50s. Its all been money based, how far back do you have to go to find a club that built a team that won the league, instead of buying a team that won the league?

Nothing lasts forever and Sky TVs financial grip on football wont last forever either, when it ends hopefully the football world can get back to football, and leave all the pantomime histrionics in the past.

One of my best mates is a City fan, he's been a season ticket holder for 15 years until this season. He told me he isn't renewing it this time because its embarrassing to be there, he likened City to their neighbours and that was the final straw for him.

In my world Chelsea are what we call a shiithouse club, they always have been and they always will be. When the money years end they'll be back to being the yoyo club they always used to be, if they don't go bankrupt first.

[Cuthbert]

Originally Posted by Nurse Duckett

I see all this "big club" talk as Sky TV rhetoric. In the real world there are at least a dozen big football clubs in England.

When people say big club they usually just mean a sustained period of success and a club who can attract the world's best players. Chelsea fall into that group but you do have a point here. Chelsea will never be a genuinely big club imo. Same with PSG.

I believe that the sky years will be ignored in years to come, a little bit like the world cup before the 50s. Its all been money based, how far back do you have to go to find a club that built a team that won the league, instead of buying a team that won the league?

Define buying a team?

If you mean players that came through the youth ranks then the United (sorry ) sides with Beckham, Scholes, Giggs, Gary & Phil Neville, Butt, Wes Brown & John O'Shea are the most recent, so 2003. We'll probably never see that happen again.

As far as building teams, United (and again ) did it last year. Sure, they've spent 30m on players like Rooney and Ferdinand and 24m on van Persie, 17m on Jones, Valencia, de Gea and so on but the money was self generated through their own success and completely fair. They have a net spend under the Glazers of something like 5-6m per year yet they generate well over 100m per year. Were it not for them they'd literally be laughing all the way to the bank.

Arsenal have done it too. They did buy Henry, Vieira, Pires, Bergkamp and so on but as far as I know they generated their own money.

Arsenal and United (and to some extent Liverpool before them) did things fairly (you could argue Arsenal didn't actually, Google Henry Norris and look at what he did at Arsenal. I appreciate I am a man of our times though.)

Nothing lasts forever and Sky TVs financial grip on football wont last forever either, when it ends hopefully the football world can get back to football, and leave all the pantomime histrionics in the past.

I think a similar thing will probably happen, not just Sky but foreign ownership. Fulham just got bought by an American (I know Al-Fayed was Egyptian but still) and with each season my fears of a completely foreign owned PL come closer and closer to reality. IMO the government should have stepped in to stop this right after Abramovich made Chelsea his plaything as it was obvious where this was headed but when you actually want them to do something they sit on their hands and close their eyes.

Only really now Spurs and Everton of the "big" players are UK owned and Everton have been actively looking for new owners for a decade now so that's only a matter of time.

I predict that in a 10-20 year time frame that all PL clubs will be either Middle East/USA/Russian owned. They will cut off the drawbridge by scrapping relegation/promotion so that it becomes a closed shop and then you will see games being played in Moscow, NYC, Miami and Dubai etc, as these multi-billionaires play out their own special poker game using football clubs over 100 years old as nothing more than chips in a game and sod the heritage.

I don't think people are seeing exactly where our game is headed here...

One of my best mates is a City fan, he's been a season ticket holder for 15 years until this season. He told me he isn't renewing it this time because its embarrassing to be there, he likened City to their neighbours and that was the final straw for him.

In my world Chelsea are what we call a shiithouse club, they always have been and they always will be. When the money years end they'll be back to being the yoyo club they always used to be, if they don't go bankrupt first.

Chelsea are a joke tbh. I always found it funny how no London team had ever won the European Cup but that's gone now. They'd have actually never won that were it not for Abramovich. Really pissed me off that did.

[Cuthbert]

List of football clubs in England by major honours won - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who do we all think are 'big' clubs on there? Should be interesting. We are 4th.

I'd say everyone from West Brom down can't really make much of an argument. City probably are nationally big to be fair to them. Never considered Blackburn to be particularly big.

The daddies are United, Liverpool, Villa, Arsenal, Everton and Spurs imo.

[Nurse Duckett]

I had a quick look at the Wiki list, it doesn't help. To get a realistic view on English football you'd have to get rid of all the statistics from the last 15 years, their all tarnished by Sky money and therefore don't count.

The biggest two clubs in England are Manchester United and Liverpool, no other English clubs are in their league. Liverpool are more respected in Europe. There's a long list of other English clubs that I would consider big clubs, in no particular order - Arsenal, Villa, Spurs, Everton, Man City, Newcastle, Sunderland, Leeds, Sheff Wed, West Ham and I'll include Chelsea but they're only a temporary addition. I might have missed few.


Define buying a team, every team that has won the Prem in the last 15 years was a bought team, none of them were built from scratch, they were all bought and paid for by Sky TV money. All watched by the fickle and fashion concious middle classes who'll desert the game as soon as its not a fashion statement anymore.

[Goofle]

Originally Posted by Fluffy Kittens

Arsenal have done it too. They did buy Henry, Vieira, Pires, Bergkamp and so on but as far as I know they generated their own money.

Those players combined didn't cost as much as either Rooney, Ferdinand or RVP.

[Cuthbert]

Originally Posted by Goofle11

Those players combined didn't cost as much as either Rooney, Ferdinand or RVP.

Yeah but consider the times as well. Henry cost 10.5m in 1999, that'd be the equivalent of about 35m now. Bergkamp 7.5m in 1995... United's record signing at that point was Andy Cole at 7m yet that team had already won the league twice.

& 10.5m (Henry) + 7.5m (Bergkamp) + 3.5m (Vieira) + 6m (Pires) = 27.5m

van Persie was 24m
Rooney was 20m plus 7m in potential add ons

btw my post wasn't a criticism of Arsenal.

[Cuthbert]

Originally Posted by Nurse Duckett

Define buying a team, every team that has won the Prem in the last 15 years was a bought team, none of them were built from scratch, they were all bought and paid for by Sky TV money. All watched by the fickle and fashion concious middle classes who'll desert the game as soon as its not a fashion statement anymore.

All the teams in the division get roughly equal amounts of Sky money though so I don't see how that means the teams that have won the league were bought teams (Chelsea & City aside) as they're competing against each other. It's not like in Spain where 50% goes to Madrid and Barça and the other 50% is shared among the other 18 teams.

Can't really see how this is a criticism tbh, that's how football works. With success comes rewards, it's like saying you shouldn't get prize money for winning the league (which you then use to buy players.)

Seems like it's mostly a dig at United tbh lol as they've dominated the PL era. They've got their faults as a club but buying titles isn't one of them.

[14232949]

Originally Posted by Goofle11

Suarez and Rooney at Arsenal. EPL winners.

And what exactly is the attraction for world class players to come to Arsenal?

Celebrating 4th position in the league.
Constant disappointment in both national and international tournaments.
A chairman and management team content with being a feeder club with the reluctance to put the money earned from sales back into buying top players.
The best they've managed in recent times is an over the hill Podolski.
A team that's only been regressing for years and aren't even considered a threat to the likes of Man Utd and City.
Watching their long-time weaker city rivals become a better team than them.

There's not a hope in hell Suarez or Rooney will sign for Arsenal. Wayne will stay at Man Utd and Suarez is probably Spain, France or Germany bound.