Music Banter - Greatest sportsmen of all time?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse Duckett (Post 1598912)

The Ali/Robinson thing is probably a matter of opinion, they were both great boxers. I think Ali had more to overcome in his life, he did manage to overcome all his problems and still regained and remained world champion, that's why I'd choose him.

Plenty of boxers have had to overcome adversity, Tyson and Mayweather Jnr served prison sentences for example, you wouldn't say they were the greatest. May as well agree to disagree here though.

Quote:

The Messi thing isn't really a matter of opinion, and the game moving massively forwards is your opinion but unfortunately its a wrong opinion, if you don't mind me saying it does smell a little bit of Sky/modernmedia propaganda.

Do you really, genuinely believe this :D?

Many of the icons of the past would not match up to the top players today in terms of athleticism alone, not even considering tactics and diet and so on. Look at the likes of Socrates and George Best, one was a chain smoking whiskey drinker and the other, well we know what happened there. Yet they were world class players, they wouldn't reach the top of today's game. I don't mind you saying it, but it's just wrong.

Go and watch a compilation of MOTD from the 70s and then watch the last MOTD goal of the month competition. There's no comparison I'm afraid.

Quote:

The game has gone backwards in the last 15-20 years, all they've done is stopped tackling, this makes the game easier for players like Messi. I wouldn't put him in the same class as Maradona or Cryuff or Zidane or Platini ( I'll stop at 4 names, I could have gone on), he wouldn't have been given the same freedom or protection on a football pitch as he gets today. If I'm honest I presumed that the person that suggested Messi is the greatest sportsman of all time was on the wind up and just looking for responses, comments like "he's reaching levels that go beyond what you can expect of humans" do make that poster look cliched and sheltered.

You have quite a romantic and nostalgic/old school view of the sport :D

It has clearly advanced on the pitch. The game has changed massively and you cannot really compare players through the ages. Your point about tackling doesn't really hold up, it is true that players are more protected these days (and so they should be), but then defenders are technically better and more athletic as well.

Messi has already outscored Maradona for Argentina and he's 27. Now compare their club records. Knock out blow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRXbYf5qZRg

Messi's last goal. This was just a few days ago and was in a cup final.

Get the tissues out lads.

^^^^^

That was amazing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista (Post 1598914)

Only 4 players (all forwards) in the entire history of the NHL, averaged more points per game than Orr did.

Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Mike Bossy, and Sidney Crosby.

Bobby Orr (a defenseman) averaged more points per game than these other notable forwards:

Steve Yzerman, Joe Sakic, Peter Forsberg, Phil Esposito, Jarri Kuri, Eric Lindros, Marcel Dionne, Guy Lafleur, Evgeni Malkin, Alexander Ovechkin, Jaromir Jagr, Pavel Bure, Brett Hull, Mark Messier, and hundreds of others.

No other defenseman in the history of the NHL has ever won a scoring title. Bobby Orr did it twice - and both times was named best defenseman too.

Orr won the Norris trophy a record 8 consecutive years. No other player has won it more than 3 consecutive years.

For those who are of the opinion that Wayne Gretzky is the greatest ever, try this. Imagine Bobby spent his entire career as a forward and that Gretzky had spent his as a defenseman (hard to do seeing as Wayne was nowhere near tough enough for the position) - now try to imagine how many points each would have scored. Wayne made a career of hanging out by the blue line waiting for outlet passes - Bobby never had that luxury.

I know orr is great and maybe he is better than gretzky (I think comparing different positions is unfair as is tho, which is why im not going to say hasek > gretzky), but isn't using offensive numbers to show how great a dman is one of the reason guys like Karlsson is so hated now? I mean he has some ridiculous defenseman numbers but people still get pissed when he rightfully wins the Norris. different argument but sue me.

and comparing Orr's ppg with guys like Crosby's is super unfair unless you adjust it for the era.

again not saying orr wasn't the best dman of all time. he very likely is.

@Goofle

:D

Milner and Fernandinho :D

Thing is, there are about fifty videos of him doing that.

To Goofle and Monkeytennis,

Did Messi win the World Cup almost single handedly? No he didn't, he disappeared didn't he, he's never won a World Cup and i doubt he ever will. Maradona won the 1986 World Cup for Argentina with the most impressive and explosive WC performances in modern history. Did Messi leave Barca and join a small unfashionable club in Italy that had never won the Italian title and lead them to the Italian League title? No, he hasnt has he.

So, if a player hasnt scored as many goals as Messi they're not as good as him is that what you're saying? By that reasoning any player that has scored more than him is better than him? All midfielders and defenders that don't score a lot of goals are never going to be as good as him? Its all just about goals is it?

I hope neither of you take this the wrong way, but i have to say it. I obviously understand the game of Football/Soccer on a much deeper level than either of you, can I suggest you both try and open your minds a little or in Goofles case a lot, and study the game. Don't use Sky TV as a study aid, that would be like asking a 9 year old with obvious learning difficulties to help you revise for your mathematics degree exam.

ps Bergkamp was twice the player Messi will ever be, if Goofle was half the Arsenal fan he pretends to be he'd already know this, he was better at everything than Messi. Thierry Henry said that Bergkamp was the best player he ever played with, and remember Henry was at Barca with Messi! Which opinion carries the most weight, your Messi scored more therefore hes better or Henrys professional opinion?

pps. I'd bet my left bollock that you two will be saying Neymars the best player ever within the next 5 years, because thats what Sky TV will be telling you to say. You'll probably both deny this today, but that's only because Sky haven't brainwashed you both yet, they will, just like they have about Messi.

MOT :)

"he didn't win a team game as much as this other guy!!! also this other guy said he was better!!"

no but don't worry lets rank the best players by one game alone. lets say... the one game I care about. hm ok so the only game that matters is the world cup championships of 1986. anything else is stupid and also SKY TV how do you not understand????

don't worry tho, I understand the fundamentals of the game more than you all

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales (Post 1599245)

Any chance you could run that past me again in English?

unlikely, since your debate was as such