Any WWE fans?

**Goofle** · 04-09-2013, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mankycaaant

He personifies everything I dislike in a wrestler personally.
Lacking in personality, portraying a 'bad guy' yet doesn't act like a bad guy should. Doesn't do anything to earn boos rather playing up the 'cool guy' persona. He doesn't look like a threat. And he's always had to have someone in his corner to ensure he draws a reaction.

I think he'd be better served as a mid-card face, but that's just me.
I don't see how he'll make a believable champion as we've seen him take losses to absolutely everyone, which of course he is not personally at fault for, but it tells me that WWE are not entirely serious about pushing him as they've booked him as anything but a credible challenger and now champion.

I do however think Big E's got a ton of potential. Great look. Good worker with an impressive move set and a surprising charisma to boot.

It is fair to say that Ziggler is told to act that way surely? And you surely can't be serious in thinking Big E has charisma? The guy is a nothing piece of crap.

14232949 · 04-09-2013, 04:56 PM

I mainly blame the indies the for the pandemic I like to call the 'cool heel issue'. Call me old fashioned, but I am of the opinion heels should be booed and faces cheered.
Heels shouldn't be cool. We as fans shouldn't like them. They should be cowardly; dirty, backstabbing, bullying conniving, bratty and just right c*nts.

There aren't enough wrestlers who will drop their egos and start screaming, throwing tantrums and being really dislikeable.
The Miz was such a good heel because his character (and from what I've seen in interviews, he as a person) is this arrogant self-obsessed bratty little knob who thinks he's a reality TV star. He's the type to throw tantrums, he's the type to get his poodle pampered, he's someone you'd pay to see get beat up.
Ziggler on the other hand is like the cool guy at your high school whom everyone wanted to be. He's got the hot girl, he's got the heavy to back him up. He does all the cool moves, etc. That's hardly going to draw boos especially when one takes into account that the average wrestling fan is the exact opposite of Ziggler so tries to live vicariously through him, deeming him the cool guy.

Cool heels will bring the business down. Bad guys need to be booed, good guys need to be cheered. At this point switching mostly the entire roster face to heel and vice versa would probably increase the product tenfold and snuff out a lot of the 'smarks'

As for Big E, I do. He'll be the next Batista. Just wait and see.

Mojo · 04-09-2013, 05:04 PM

I like heels. Why shouldn't everyone else? The "smarter" fans get the harder it is to manipulate fans to respond how you want them to.

Urban Hat€monger ? · 04-09-2013, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mankycaaant

I mainly blame the indies the for the pandemic I like to call the 'cool heel issue'. Call me old fashioned, but I am of the opinion heels should be booed and faces cheered.
Heels shouldn't be cool. We as fans shouldn't like them. They should be cowardly; dirty, backstabbing, bullying conniving, bratty and just right c*nts.

It's been like that for years. In the 80s you had Eddie Guilbert, The Four Horsemen and The Fabulous Freebirds were all cheered as heels.

Then in the 90s you had the NWO, Austin got cheered the more they made him a heel, Pillman as well during his whole loose cannon gimmick was loved by the fans. As was Bret Hart around the world when he did that anti-America angle.

I think what the WWE need to realise is that being a face doesn't have to mean being a one dimensional grinning idiot who suddenly becomes John Cena's best friend (Hello Seamus).

Case in point, The Road Warriors. They started off as heels because they would just beat the **** out of you and enjoy it. When they realised people were enjoying this they turned them face they just had them do exactly the same thing. They didn't change their characters whatsoever. All they did was stop having them beat the crap out of The Rock n Roll Express or The Fantastics & had them beat up The Russians or The Midnight Express instead.

Both The Rock & Chris Jericho made their name being cocky heels and transferred that by becoming cocky faces without losing too much of what made that character likeable, I'd like to think that Ziggler could pull it off as well.

ThePhanastasio · 04-09-2013, 06:19 PM

I think that Ziggler's cockiness actually works very well for his character, and the way he's been presented. As mankycaant says, he's got the cool moves, the back-up, the hot girl...and he has lost a lot.

Exactly. He gets caught up in his showboating, and that loses him a lot of matches. His arrogance makes him someone that, yes, a lot of fans would want to live vicariously through, but his arrogance has cost him, time and again. He does have the moveset and key wins to portray him as legitimate, and if he didn't **** himself over in kayfabe so often, he'd be a well-loved babyface. As it stands, his character has a tendency to screw up and look like a total ass-hat, and it's pretty much always his own damn fault.

It's established in kayfabe that he's a good wrestler, but it's always pretty glaringly pointed out that his complete douchiness and showing off, which he prides himself on, can cost him a lot of matches that he should win. He has won some big ones, but lost a lot of little ones. His appeal as a heel and what makes him good as a heel is that it's plain to see that he's good, and he can win...but watching him fail and it appearing to be because of his own hubris is satisfying. Very classic storytelling, that. This goes back even before the Greeks, although it works well for my example. Look at Mythology.

Wrestling is, in its essence, a classic battle of good vs. evil. Their can be a grey area, but it tends always to come out in the end.

Although Ziggler isn't challenging "the gods" with his excessive pride, he does "get his" quite a lot. With the title reign, I imagine that will only amplify this major aspect of his character until he costs himself dearly.

My current major wrestling rant is Kaitlyn. I cannot stand Kaitlyn. She can't work, she's awkward, she's clunky, and she's going to seriously hurt someone else - since they also can't work well enough to protect themselves.

**** Kaitlyn and the booker she rode in on.

14232949 · 04-10-2013, 11:48 AM

Kaitlyn's only there because of her look. Worse than her in-ring ability is her awkwardness when cutting 'promos' or just appearing in backstage segments. It's as if she's never watched a wrestling show in her life, which she probably hasn't.

Honestly, I don't get all the love for Ziggler, he just screams mid-carder to me. He has nothing to differentiate himself from every skinny, super-kicking, exaggerated bump taking, cool heel indie guy out there. He's hardly the first to come up with that persona, and he sure as hell isn't the best at it.
I say turn him face, and wash the smarks turn on him.

I agree whole heartedly with Urban's analysis of the WWE face problem. Alberto Del Rio, a supposed aristocrat with a background in MMA turns into a good guy, instead of being the rich tough guy he's always been, he now wants to make poop jokes.
The WWE's vision of what makes people cheer for wrestlers is tainted.
I see why they're trying to model other superstars after John Cena, he draws a lot of money, but it just doesn't work. Sheamus & Del Rio are slowing becoming Cena V.2.0 and 3.0 and it's just not a natural fit.
Becoming a face doesn't mean you have to become stale and boring.

Urban Hat€monger ? · 04-10-2013, 12:48 PM

I'm going to make a bold prediction.

Dean Ambrose will win the next money in the bank ladder match.

14232949 · 04-10-2013, 12:52 PM

I don't see The Shield disbanding that early. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say Wade Barrett.

**Goofle** · 04-10-2013, 12:57 PM

They don't need to disband for that to happen. It would bring some legitimacy to their operation if anything.

Urban Hat€monger ? · 04-10-2013, 01:02 PM

A year ago I would have said Barrett but there's just something missing about him right now.
Having him lose on Raw week after week in the run up to Mania doesn't help ether and this program with the Miz does nothing for me.

I don't want them to break up the Shield but I think they need to build up new stars quickly because the current lot of upper midcarders are just bombing. I think Ambrose the most complete guy on the roster to fill that void. I think the rest of the shield will be fine, Rollins is easily IC/US title material, They could easily stick Reigns in a tag team with someone else from NXT.

I think just by the make up of the shield you can tell it's basically a vehicle to get Ambrose over and if the other 2 do as well it's pretty much a bonus.

04-09-2013, 05:04 PM	#43 (permalink)
Mojo Melancholia Eternally Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: England Posts: 5,018	I like heels. Why shouldn't everyone else? The "smarter" fans get the harder it is to manipulate fans to respond how you want them to. __________________ Last.FM \| Echoes and Dust

04-09-2013, 06:19 PM	#45 (permalink)
ThePhanastasio Killed Laura Palmer Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Ashland, KY Posts: 1,679	I think that Ziggler's cockiness actually works very well for his character, and the way he's been presented. As mankycaant says, he's got the cool moves, the back-up, the hot girl...and he has lost a lot. Exactly. He gets caught up in his showboating, and that loses him a lot of matches. His arrogance makes him someone that, yes, a lot of fans would want to live vicariously through, but his arrogance has cost him, time and again. He does have the moveset and key wins to portray him as legitimate, and if he didn't ** himself over in kayfabe so often, he'd be a well-loved babyface. As it stands, his character has a tendency to screw up and look like a total ass-hat, and it's pretty much always his own damn fault. It's established in kayfabe that he's a good wrestler, but it's always pretty glaringly pointed out that his complete douchiness and showing off, which he prides himself on, can cost him a lot of matches that he should win. He has won some big ones, but lost a lot of little ones. His appeal as a heel and what makes him good as a heel is that it's plain to see that he's good, and he can win...but watching him fail and it appearing to be because of his own hubris is satisfying. Very classic storytelling, that. This goes back even before the Greeks, although it works well for my example. Look at Mythology. Wrestling is, in its essence, a classic battle of good vs. evil. Their can be a grey area, but it tends always to come out in the end. Although Ziggler isn't challenging "the gods" with his excessive pride, he does "get his" quite a lot. With the title reign, I imagine that will only amplify this major aspect of his character until he costs himself dearly. My current major wrestling rant is Kaitlyn. I cannot stand Kaitlyn. She can't work, she's awkward, she's clunky, and she's going to seriously hurt someone else - since they also can't work well enough to protect themselves. ** Kaitlyn and the booker she rode in on. __________________ Phish: Studio Discography Reviewed 100 Albums I Heartily Recommend My last.fm It's a hand-me-down, the thoughts are broken Perhaps they're better left unsung

04-10-2013, 12:48 PM	#47 (permalink)
Urban Hat€monger ? The Sexual Intellectual Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Somewhere cooler than you Posts: 18,605	I'm going to make a bold prediction. Dean Ambrose will win the next money in the bank ladder match. __________________ Urb's RYM Stuff Most people sell their soul to the devil, but the devil sells his soul to Nick Cave.

04-10-2013, 01:02 PM	#50 (permalink)
Urban Hat€monger ? The Sexual Intellectual Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Somewhere cooler than you Posts: 18,605	A year ago I would have said Barrett but there's just something missing about him right now. Having him lose on Raw week after week in the run up to Mania doesn't help ether and this program with the Miz does nothing for me. I don't want them to break up the Shield but I think they need to build up new stars quickly because the current lot of upper midcarders are just bombing. I think Ambrose the most complete guy on the roster to fill that void. I think the rest of the shield will be fine, Rollins is easily IC/US title material, They could easily stick Reigns in a tag team with someone else from NXT. I think just by the make up of the shield you can tell it's basically a vehicle to get Ambrose over and if the other 2 do as well it's pretty much a bonus. __________________ Urb's RYM Stuff Most people sell their soul to the devil, but the devil sells his soul to Nick Cave.

04-09-2013, 04:56 PM	#42 (permalink)
14232949 The Big Dog Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,989	I mainly blame the indies the for the pandemic I like to call the 'cool heel issue'. Call me old fashioned, but I am of the opinion heels should be booed and faces cheered. Heels shouldn't be cool. We as fans shouldn't like them. They should be cowardly; dirty, backstabbing, bullying conniving, bratty and just right c*nts. There aren't enough wrestlers who will drop their egos and start screaming, throwing tantrums and being really dislikeable. The Miz was such a good heel because his character (and from what I've seen in interviews, he as a person) is this arrogant self-obsessed bratty little knob who thinks he's a reality TV star. He's the type to throw tantrums, he's the type to get his poodle pampered, he's someone you'd pay to see get beat up. Ziggler on the other hand is like the cool guy at your high school whom everyone wanted to be. He's got the hot girl, he's got the heavy to back him up. He does all the cool moves, etc. That's hardly going to draw boos especially when one takes into account that the average wrestling fan is the exact opposite of Ziggler so tries to live vicariously through him, deeming him the cool guy. Cool heels will bring the business down. Bad guys need to be booed, good guys need to be cheered. At this point switching mostly the entire roster face to heel and vice versa would probably increase the product tenfold and snuff out a lot of the 'smarks' As for Big E, I do. He'll be the next Batista. Just wait and see.

04-10-2013, 11:48 AM	#46 (permalink)
14232949 The Big Dog Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,989	Kaitlyn's only there because of her look. Worse than her in-ring ability is her awkwardness when cutting 'promos' or just appearing in backstage segments. It's as if she's never watched a wrestling show in her life, which she probably hasn't. Honestly, I don't get all the love for Ziggler, he just screams mid-carder to me. He has nothing to differentiate himself from every skinny, super-kicking, exaggerated bump taking, cool heel indie guy out there. He's hardly the first to come up with that persona, and he sure as hell isn't the best at it. I say turn him face, and wash the smarks turn on him. I agree whole heartedly with Urban's analysis of the WWE face problem. Alberto Del Rio, a supposed aristocrat with a background in MMA turns into a good guy, instead of being the rich tough guy he's always been, he now wants to make poop jokes. The WWE's vision of what makes people cheer for wrestlers is tainted. I see why they're trying to model other superstars after John Cena, he draws a lot of money, but it just doesn't work. Sheamus & Del Rio are slowing becoming Cena V.2.0 and 3.0 and it's just not a natural fit. Becoming a face doesn't mean you have to become stale and boring.

04-10-2013, 12:52 PM	#48 (permalink)
14232949 The Big Dog Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,989	I don't see The Shield disbanding that early. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say Wade Barrett.