Great Debate: Are eSports sports?

GuitarBizarre · 07-24-2013, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newkie

I appreciate I'm probably not going to add a whole lot to this debate, but I'm just going to come out and say what I feel, which is no. So many real life situations you could apply to being competitive, or playing for cash or whatever. Are these tournaments? Sure, why not. But why do they have to be labelled a sport. Does it genuinely matter to someone who partakes in this if they are considered an athlete or not? If they are worried about some sort of social stigma or a lack of recognition because what they do isn't considered a sport well, that won't go away if it did become listed at the olympics because it would still be considered a bit of a joke.

Like Curling.

I mean can't you pretty much list anything as a sport against the initial criteria? If you go out on a Saturday and try and pull, do you think of yourself as a sportsman? You're engaging in physical (albeit often ridiculous) activity, competing with others for the "gold medal", those who are the best often become "Popular" whether in social circles or because of modern society-actual celebrities ala Jersey Shore/Geordie Shore/The Valleys. They have spectator audiences-people will often wonder "what's he doing that I'm not?" or they will gauge female reactions and try and figure out their own approach later. Finally there is a depth to it, you need good motoring and conversational functions and whether these be impaired by a beverage or aided by recreational drug use, you need to keep your focus and your eyes on the prize.

Forget all that-is trying to have sex and then having sex considered a sport? Because if so we can just all be athletes and be done with it. I realise I'm probably coming across as an insincere **** here GB but it was the easiest example I could find. And this isn't taking anything away from games or gamers, I'm all over that ****.

Lets say we try to define sex as a sport.

The immediate problem we run into is -

1 - Winning at sex is subjective. Just having sex is not a winning condition. There must be a degree by which one can compete with others - is that bar number of orgasms had, number of times had sex, number of places had sex in, etc etc? By which metric can one beat "competition" in order to become a world champion of sex?

2 - Assuming one defines such a metric, how does one verify it? Is there a system in place which defines and specifies the conditions by which one can be agreed to have achieved the set goal, and can be relied upon to not be erroneous or otherwise biased? Other sports use either a points based system of definite moments, such as goals, baskets, shots on target, etc. In subjective disciplines an impartial panel of judges is chosen and their scores averaged to provide a fair representation.

3 - Assuming we have both of those things, to who do we turn if there is a disagreement with the set criteria, or if someone is suspected of illegitimate play (IE hiring prostitutes when the rules forbid it)? In a sport, there is a body, set of bodies, or a multiple of bodies that may run concurrent, independent, or joint events, to whom competitors can turn in the event of a need for external arbitration.

Note, that a casual fling or one night stand or even a committed relationship, has none of these attributes - this doesn't devalue those things, but it does prevent them from being a consistent and self-contained sport. Same for games - a casual game of Quake with friends isn't bound by any of these attributes save for the rules of the game itself (Which are frequently modified by the whims of those involved, for example players challenging each other to melee only matches, or imposing voluntary weapon restrictions for the sake of fun.) This doesn't devalue a casual game of quake, but it does mean that it's not eSport.

In the same way, a casual kickabout with your mates falls to the same thing - that doesn't mean you can't have fun, doesn't mean its better or worse exercise, nor does it mean you shouldn't do it whenever you feel like, but it does mean you can't describe yourself as a sportsman/woman just for the sake of having invited your mates for some 5 a side.

Newkie · 07-24-2013, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

Lets say we try to define sex as a sport.

The immediate problem we run into is -

1 - Winning at sex is subjective. Just having sex is not a winning condition. There must be a degree by which one can compete with others - is that bar number of orgasms had, number of times had sex, number of places had sex in, etc etc? By which metric can one beat "competition" in order to become a world champion of sex?

2 - Assuming one defines such a metric, how does one verify it? Is there a system in place which defines and specifies the conditions by which one can be agreed to have achieved the set goal, and can be relied upon to not be erroneous or otherwise biased? Other sports use either a points based system of definite moments, such as goals, baskets, shots on target, etc. In subjective disciplines an impartial panel of judges is chosen and their scores averaged to provide a fair representation.

3 - Assuming we have both of those things, to who do we turn if there is a disagreement with the set criteria, or if someone is suspected of illegitimate play (IE hiring prostitutes when the rules forbid it)? In a sport, there is a body, set of bodies, or a multiple of bodies that may run concurrent, independent, or joint events, to whom competitors can turn in the event of a need for external arbitration.

Note, that a casual fling or one night stand or even a committed relationship, has none of these attributes - this doesn't devalue those things, but it does prevent them from being a consistent and self-contained sport. Same for games - a casual game of Quake with friends isn't bound by any of these attributes save for the rules of the game itself (Which are frequently modified by the whims of those involved, for example players challenging each other to melee only matches, or imposing voluntary weapon restrictions for the sake of fun.) This doesn't devalue a casual game of quake, but it does mean that it's not eSport.

In the same way, a casual kickabout with your mates falls to the same thing - that doesn't mean you can't have fun, doesn't mean its better or worse exercise, nor does it mean you shouldn't do it whenever you feel like, but it does mean you can't describe yourself as a sportsman/woman just for the sake of having invited your mates for some 5 a side.

How does a kickabout not encompass the three above? There is a winning condition, you verify it by goals scored, you follow the rules and/or have someone play ref to arbitrate?

Finally, if it doesn't devalue it as an experience, why are people in the gaming community bothered about being perceived as athletes? Are they bothered? If so, why?

GuitarBizarre · 07-24-2013, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newkie

How does a kickabout not encompass the three above? There is a winning condition, you verify it by goals scored, you follow the rules and/or have someone play ref to arbitrate?

Finally, if it doesn't devalue it as an experience, why are people in the gaming community bothered about being perceived as athletes? Are they bothered? If so, why?

I should have clarified - There's rather more to being a governing body than just being a referee. Specifically it involves being an authority to whom people in the discipline will refer in any and all calls, and that has the power (And the means to enforce that power) to both define, change, and amend the rules of the competition outside of the game itself - IE, the rules of a Cycle race are to get from point to point faster than the other guy - the UCI's job is to ensure that this is being done fairly and also to make judgements and rulings pertaining to the manner in which it is done - in the UCI's case they do things like rule on seat heights, bike weights, etc.

In football, for example, where there IS a governing body to refer to, your casual kickabout with your mates has no rules regarding ball size, weight, player transfer windows, proper enforcement of offside, pitch conditions, sendings off, proper timekeeping, etc. FIFA's job as the governing body of the sport is to ensure that in sporting competition, as opposed to amateur play, all of the above are followed.

It is possible that you could form a footballing offshoot where your kickabout rules would be considered valid at all levels of play, but you'd need to form a body of scope to do the above, or whatever other administrative tasks were necessary to keep play in your chosen discipline consistent across all players and (if applicable or forthcoming) tournament settings.

Newkie · 07-25-2013, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

I should have clarified - There's rather more to being a governing body than just being a referee. Specifically it involves being an authority to whom people in the discipline will refer in any and all calls, and that has the power (And the means to enforce that power) to both define, change, and amend the rules of the competition outside of the game itself - IE, the rules of a Cycle race are to get from point to point faster than the other guy - the UCI's job is to ensure that this is being done fairly and also to make judgements and rulings pertaining to the manner in which it is done - in the UCI's case they do things like rule on seat heights, bike weights, etc.

In football, for example, where there IS a governing body to refer to, your casual kickabout with your mates has no rules regarding ball size, weight, player transfer windows, proper enforcement of offside, pitch conditions, sendings off, proper timekeeping, etc. FIFA's job as the governing body of the sport is to ensure that in sporting competition, as opposed to amateur play, all of the above are followed.

It is possible that you could form a footballing offshoot where your kickabout rules would be considered valid at all levels of play, but you'd need to form a body of scope to do the above, or whatever other administrative tasks were necessary to keep play in your chosen discipline consistent across all players and (if applicable or forthcoming) tournament settings.

Alright, so anyone who plays under those circumstances is a sportsman? For instance, in England there are about 500 football divisions, although the top 5 (if that) are the only ones that count. Some lower than that are Semi-Professional, and those at the bottom of the tier are amateurs. But they are playing in the English league system and follow Fifa/F.A rules. So, by definition, are they all athletes/sportsmen?

GuitarBizarre · 07-25-2013, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newkie

Alright, so anyone who plays under those circumstances is a sportsman? For instance, in England there are about 500 football divisions, although the top 5 (if that) are the only ones that count. Some lower than that are Semi-Professional, and those at the bottom of the tier are amateurs. But they are playing in the English league system and follow Fifa/F.A rules. So, by definition, are they all athletes/sportsmen?

I would say they can definitely be thought of as such. There is perhaps room for a delineation between "sportsmen" (Workplace teams, skilled amateurs, those seeking competition as an extension of their recreational game) "professional sportsmen" (Those playing for some or all of their living wage, or for a prizepool) and "elite sportsmen" (Those aiming to be champions in their own right) in that group though. The key delineation is that if they're taking the time to play in a league, minor or otherwise, that's a sign of a partial or complete change in attitude from "dicking around to have fun" and "Playing to win". It may not be a complete or even significant switch from one to the other, but there's clearly an element there that the casual game doesn't have.

Newkie · 07-24-2013, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

Lets say we try to define sex as a sport.

The immediate problem we run into is -

1 - Winning at sex is subjective. Just having sex is not a winning condition. There must be a degree by which one can compete with others - is that bar number of orgasms had, number of times had sex, number of places had sex in, etc etc? By which metric can one beat "competition" in order to become a world champion of sex?

Panel of three judges as in diving or boxing to mediate scores on one or all of the above counts, depending on which variation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

2 - Assuming one defines such a metric, how does one verify it? Is there a system in place which defines and specifies the conditions by which one can be agreed to have achieved the set goal, and can be relied upon to not be erroneous or otherwise biased? Other sports use either a points based system of definite moments, such as goals, baskets, shots on target, etc. In subjective disciplines an impartial panel of judges is chosen and their scores averaged to provide a fair representation.

3 - Assuming we have both of those things, to who do we turn if there is a disagreement with the set criteria, or if someone is suspected of illegitimate play (IE hiring prostitutes when the rules forbid it)? In a sport, there is a body, set of bodies, or a multiple of bodies that may run concurrent, independent, or joint events, to whom competitors can turn in the event of a need for external arbitration.

Again, the independent adjudicators? You just need to draw up the criteria and bam, you've made a sport?