Great Debate: Are eSports sports?

PoorOldPo · 05-28-2012, 01:47 PM

So the olympics in the future will be full of horribly obese people in wheelchairs balancing their concoles on their fat tabletop bellies with their pudgy balloon fingers.

Salami · 05-28-2012, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

K, so here's the deal.

Right now, I think eSports, videogames played for money on a professional basis, are legitimately sports.

Others, who shall remain nameless unless they want to join in, believe not.

Arguments For eSports being legitimate sports:

1 - Pros in the most popular games practice 14 hour days to be at the top of their fields.
2 - The most popular games have professional teams who manage and run contracts for their major players.
3 - Sponsorship exists, and on a very wide scale. Evil Geniuses, a single team, for example, are sponsored by Intel, SteelSeries, Monster Energy, Kingston Technology, InWin, Beyond Gaming, Sapphire Technology, Six Pool Gaming, Bigfoot Networks, Intel Extreme Team, GUNNAR Optiks, SLAPPA, and SPLIT REASON.
4 - The top players are as much celebrities within their scenes as in most other sports. I'm not talking like Soccer or Baseball, which are culturally huge, but any smaller sport like Snooker or Curling or whatever, they have their own stars that are respected, and so does eSports.
5 - They have a spectator audience of people who DON'T play the game themselves. Barcrafts are a global thing and they're frequented by plenty of people who don't play and can't play, but who love to watch.
6 - There is real depth to the games that attain status as eSports. Starcraft Broodwar, for example, is still developing as players discover new strategies and tactics to this day, 10 years after its release and 2 years after the release of its sequel (Which is currently exploding in popularity)

Arguments against -

1 - They're not an activity defined by serious physical exertion.

Thats just some arguments off the top of my head, with the Con argument being one I've heard multiple times before.

I will say that personally, I don't think the con argument I've listed holds water. Starcraft at a high level, with up to 800 actions per minute being input by keyboard and mouse, is many times more physically demanding than, for example, darts or snooker, both of which are recognised sports.

So whats everyone's view? Are eSports legitimately sports in their own right, or are they not?

If not, why not? I'll admit to some personal bias here - So far, nobody has been able to provide me with a solid argument as to why apart from the physical exertion element, which has, to my mind, been rendered inoperable as a debating point by the existence of many other sports with low physical requirements but high dexterity requirements.

I'm personally very strongly against the idea that eSports are sports.
I haven't read through the thread, but I have no doubt that some people have made the point that there's no kind of physical activity involved in eSports, yet I really think that this defines the issue for me. The benefits of taking part in sports are clear, development of physiology, increasing stamina and generally making you a healthier person.

I'm one of those people who does many sports but is only ever about average at them - I've been selected to represent Manchester in the national cross country county championships (ask me if you're interested!), but yet finished third last in the finals. I managed to get on my local first team seven's rugby, but only because there were only two people competing for each space on the team.

But, at the end of the day, after the training, I've oxygenated my blood, I've increased my stamina and cleared my arteries from the fat from my diet. I'm in a good mood.

Sadly after a hard day of playing Anime, GuitarBizzare will be no healthier, no fitter and probably have got far less from it.

I know it's a matter of preference, but I'd far rather have my precious medals from races I've run in than anything electronic that very few people can relate to and no health benefits.

For these reasons, I cannot possibly consider eSports in any way "sports".

I'm not saying I have anything against them, I just don't want them to be grouped with the entirely different term "sport" in general.

GuitarBizarre · 05-28-2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salami

I'm personally very strongly against the idea that eSports are sports.
I haven't read through the thread, but I have no doubt that some people have made the point that there's no kind of physical activity involved in eSports, yet I really think that this defines the issue for me. The benefits of taking part in sports are clear, development of physiology, increasing stamina and generally making you a healthier person.

I'm one of those people who does many sports but is only ever about average at them - I've been selected to represent Manchester in the national cross country county championships (ask me if you're interested!), but yet finished third last in the finals. I managed to get on my local first team seven's rugby, but only because there were only two people competing for each space on the team.

But, at the end of the day, after the training, I've oxygenated my blood, I've increased my stamina and cleared my arteries from the fat from my diet. I'm in a good mood.

Sadly after a hard day of playing Anime, GuitarBizzare will be no healthier, no fitter and probably have got far less from it.

I know it's a matter of preference, but I'd far rather have my precious medals from races I've run in than anything electronic that very few people can relate to and no health benefits.

For these reasons, I cannot possibly consider eSports in any way "sports".

I'm not saying I have anything against them, I just don't want them to be grouped with the entirely different term "sport" in general.

No, those are the benefits of exercise. Sports is defined, even in the etymological roots, specifically as competition. Please, read through the thread. We went into this in some great detail.

Paedantic Basterd · 05-29-2012, 11:16 AM

Does a separate class of sport exist for these recreational-games-turned-competitive-sports? I think it would be a decent compromise to allow everything under the "sport" blanket (given the definition of the word), but acknowledge the difference between the categories we're arguing about.

Salami · 05-29-2012, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bam You Have AIDS

Does a separate class of sport exist for these recreational-games-turned-competitive-sports? I think it would be a decent compromise to allow everything under the "sport" blanket (given the definition of the word), but acknowledge the difference between the categories we're arguing about.

Well, the terms overlap a lot - "recreation" in general encompasses everything GuitarBizarre is talking about, but I think that someone who said they do team cycling as a sport does the sport for recreation. But it is definitely still a sport.

All I don't like the sound of are people who never leave their bedrooms saying they spend all day "doing sport" when all they do is sit at a computer screen.

GuitarBizarre · 05-29-2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salami

Well, the terms overlap a lot - "recreation" in general encompasses everything GuitarBizarre is talking about, but I think that someone who said they do team cycling as a sport does the sport for recreation. But it is definitely still a sport.

All I don't like the sound of are people who never leave their bedrooms saying they spend all day "doing sport" when all they do is sit at a computer screen.

Also, this is what I mean by appeal to ridicule and mockery. This point isn't a point. Its not constructive, its aimed, really, at being marginally offensive if anything.

It displays an inherent misunderstanding of what eSports IS. eSports isn't the result of a lack of a social life and hey presto you're an eSports legend. Its the result of, at the top levels, 8-12 hour work days in purpose outfitted facilities, where daily distractions are removed as much as possible for the betterment of the practice environment, spent doing analysis, practicing, and adhering to a schedule formed around the furtherment of the skill level of the player, with strict self-discipline and continuous goal setting. Reducing it to some sort of ridiculous farce originated by some anonymous ill-defined group of miscreants is a total failure of recognition of what these people are actually doing in order to be where they are.

Salami · 05-29-2012, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

Also, this is what I mean by appeal to ridicule and mockery. This point isn't a point. Its not constructive, its aimed, really, at being marginally offensive if anything.

It displays an inherent misunderstanding of what eSports IS. eSports isn't the result of a lack of a social life and hey presto you're an eSports legend. Its the result of, at the top levels, 8-12 hour work days in purpose outfitted facilities, where daily distractions are removed as much as possible for the betterment of the practice environment, spent doing analysis, practicing, and adhering to a schedule formed around the furtherment of the skill level of the player, with strict self-discipline and continuous goal setting. Reducing it to some sort of ridiculous farce originated by some anonymous ill-defined group of miscreants is a total failure of recognition of what these people are actually doing in order to be where they are.

Come on, you have found something verging a retort in my reply - please refer to the main body of my argument: http://www.musicbanter.com/sport-rec...ml#post1193789

GuitarBizarre · 05-29-2012, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bam You Have AIDS

Does a separate class of sport exist for these recreational-games-turned-competitive-sports? I think it would be a decent compromise to allow everything under the "sport" blanket (given the definition of the word), but acknowledge the difference between the categories we're arguing about.

This is pretty much what my position has been since the beginning. I even mentioned subcategories some pages back with exactly this intent. I don't even view it as a compromise.

I view the fact it is being CONSIDERED a compromise, more as proof that people have been, intentionally or unintentionally, assuming incorrect things about my stance, such as the repeated statements and appeals to ridicule based around some sort of bizarre assumption that I want gym teachers and fitness instructors to start bringing in eSports curriculum. I have never argued this, and I challenge anyone here to point out where I have ever implied that eSports is a replacement for exercise, or where I have ever argued it should be taught as a physical education. I eagerly await the lack of a response.

~~FireWaterBurn~~ · 05-29-2012, 11:23 AM

GuitarBizarra just keeps going back and forth on what he thinks qualifies as a sport. He wants to go by definition at times, but ignores that almost any definition you find includes physical exertion as necessary. And then tries to say that clicking some buttons counts as physical exertion. As someone just said, education contains the same amount of physical exertion and it's competition. Is it a sport too??

There's just some sort of deep-SEATED thing going on here and I hope GuitarBizarre finds the comfort he seeks.

Salami · 05-29-2012, 11:31 AM

Well, I'd like my old pal GuitarBizarre to at least consider my three points from my last post.

(1.) eSports are not a form of exertion.
The exercize required is negligible and does as much for improving one's physiology as daily routine.

(2). Competitiveness does not define sport.
Like I said, education is competitive, and isn't sport, rock climbing isn't but rock climbing is a sport unlike education.

(3). Why do you want to have eSports considered sports?
I don't see the point. There can't be any real achievement from it other than justifying inactivity and laziness.

05-28-2012, 01:47 PM	#1 (permalink)
PoorOldPo Blue Pill Oww Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Luimneach, Eire Posts: 1,107	So the olympics in the future will be full of horribly obese people in wheelchairs balancing their concoles on their fat tabletop bellies with their pudgy balloon fingers. __________________ https://www.instagram.com/hennas.lullaby/

05-29-2012, 11:16 AM	#4 (permalink)
Paedantic Basterd Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 5,184	Does a separate class of sport exist for these recreational-games-turned-competitive-sports? I think it would be a decent compromise to allow everything under the "sport" blanket (given the definition of the word), but acknowledge the difference between the categories we're arguing about.

05-29-2012, 11:23 AM	#9 (permalink)
~~FireWaterBurn~~ Account Disabled Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 99	GuitarBizarra just keeps going back and forth on what he thinks qualifies as a sport. He wants to go by definition at times, but ignores that almost any definition you find includes physical exertion as necessary. And then tries to say that clicking some buttons counts as physical exertion. As someone just said, education contains the same amount of physical exertion and it's competition. Is it a sport too?? There's just some sort of deep-SEATED thing going on here and I hope GuitarBizarre finds the comfort he seeks.

05-29-2012, 11:31 AM	#10 (permalink)
Salami Get in ma belly Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 1,385	Well, I'd like my old pal GuitarBizarre to at least consider my three points from my last post. (1.) eSports are not a form of exertion. The exercize required is negligible and does as much for improving one's physiology as daily routine. (2). Competitiveness does not define sport. Like I said, education is competitive, and isn't sport, rock climbing isn't but rock climbing is a sport unlike education. (3). Why do you want to have eSports considered sports? I don't see the point. There can't be any real achievement from it other than justifying inactivity and laziness.