The American Football Thread

Christine_Blackwell · 09-17-2013, 10:06 AM

I do know what you mean, I know that post season and super bowls don't really measure greatness. Last Super Bowl was quite crazy! Peyton without a doubt is good and will go down as one of the greatest to ever play the game.

Yeah I have my issues with Cowboys and Romo. I am not sure I would ever want him on my fantasy, but my QB places didn't get the best players this year anyway...but hopefully I can make a good run as the season progresses. I am 1-1 in my fantasy, and I won this past week, so I can't really complain.

Forward To Death · 09-17-2013, 03:36 PM

Peyton is already the greatest quarterback of all time. He needed that super bowl so all of the snobs that think you need to win at least one could relax, but even with his playoff resume he just is so much better than any other quarterback that I can think of.

He's been more dominant in a league that's radically improved even since the days of Joe Montana. I know Pats fans will push Tom Brady, but realistically he isn't even on the same level, he's the next level down with Brees and Rodgers. Really wasn't the perennial MVP candidate or even a 4,000 yard passer until he started getting the most jacked up receiving corps this league's ever seen.

Anyways, I'd be shocked if the Broncos didn't win it all this year. Could see them running the table, actually.

Thom Yorke · 09-17-2013, 04:04 PM

I dunno, I don't think you can just push Peyton's playoff performances off to the side. I don't really know a good alternative for best QB as Peyton is so much better than anyone in the regular season, but it seems kind of wrong to say the best QB of all time is so much worse when the games really matter.

As for Brady, he's had to really adjust his game over the years. He didn't really have much to throw to before he got Welker and Moss in '07, yet he still put up great stats and won 3 Superbowls in that time. He only got to play a couple years with that stacked receiving core and then completely changed his game up to accommodate those losses by having to relying on a slot receiver and two tight ends.

The talent that Manning has had to throw to is waaaaay better than what Brady had to work with. And not only was his receiving core better, but it was as stable as you can get. One of the best receivers in the league in Marvin Harrison to throw to for a decade, one of the most underrated receivers of this era in Wayne to throw to for a decade as well, one of the better pass-catching tight ends in Dallas Clark for close to a decade, and one of the most reliable slot receivers in Stokley for 4 years. You simply are not going to find a better receiving core than that that stayed together for such a long time. When you add in the fact that his O-line and especially center stayed the same for Peyton's entire career in Indy, that's a pretty ideal situation to be in.

Even looking at what Peyton has to work with in Denver, it's very similar. He now has 3 receivers to work with that looks nearly identical to what he had in Indy.

Forward To Death · 09-17-2013, 04:39 PM

Games always matter. Regular season wins equate to a shot at the playoffs. Shouldn't Ben Roethlisberger be in the discussion for greatest QB of all time if success in the playoffs is counted?

IMO, being the best means that you're just better than everyone else. Peyton Manning has always been better than Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, etc. and if he wins this year, he'll be closing the gap on the only good talking point for the argument that Brady's a better quarterback. It sounds kind of silly that he actually has to win 2 more super bowls before he can even be in the discussion. Also silly that Dan Marino is never mentioned as a possible greatest quarterback of all time, despite having held almost every significant passing record for several years. Brett Favre too.

Tom Brady was more like Ben Roethlisberger until the Patriots started to move more towards the pass, Peyton Manning has always been like Peyton Manning, regardless of who his receivers have been. Even without Stokley and Harrison, Manning put up the same stats. Can the same be said for in reverse for Brandon Stokley, who signed a huge contract and then did nothing? Absolutely not.

I don't think any of them would have done anything without Peyton Manning, and I don't think Tom Brady would have ever won an MVP without an elite receiving corps. He wasn't even in the same league as Peyton Manning when he won his Super Bowls tbh.

~~butthead aka 216~~ · 09-17-2013, 05:06 PM

brady won mvp in 2010 without an elite receiving corps. welker was nothing before brady. the difference is that belichek and brady are truly masterminds on the same page. they are more innovative and creative than anyone else and the rest of the league is always playing catch up to them. it looks simple to brady.

i do think peyton is better, and the best ever, but the elite masterclass of qbs for me is manning, montana, brady, favre, in no order. brady deserves the recognition, hes earned it with his resume and consistent greatness.

Dr_Rez · 09-17-2013, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by butthead aka 216

i do think peyton is better, and the best ever, but the elite masterclass of qbs for me is manning, montana, brady, favre, in no order. brady deserves the recognition, hes earned it with his resume and consistent greatness.

Better than Brady? That is crazy talk. I understand not putting coplete stock in rings but dude.......Brady has way more and is possibly the most clutch qb in the history of football.

This comment will russel some jimmies but I would say he is in the running for best qb ever. If he can get another superbowl (he will this year) then its his title.

Forward To Death · 09-17-2013, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by butthead aka 216

brady won mvp in 2010 without an elite receiving corps. welker was nothing before brady. the difference is that belichek and brady are truly masterminds on the same page. they are more innovative and creative than anyone else and the rest of the league is always playing catch up to them. it looks simple to brady.

i do think peyton is better, and the best ever, but the elite masterclass of qbs for me is manning, montana, brady, favre, in no order. brady deserves the recognition, hes earned it with his resume and consistent greatness.

His receiving corps in 2010 was the same as it was for the last 2 years. Hernandez, Gronkowski and Welker is an elite receiving corps.

Forward To Death · 09-17-2013, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezdaddy Longlegs

Better than Brady? That is crazy talk. I understand not putting coplete stock in rings but dude.......Brady has way more and is possibly the most clutch qb in the history of football.

This comment will russel some jimmies but I would say he is in the running for best qb ever. If he can get another superbowl (he will this year) then its his title.

Manning's better than him, and always has been.

Brady takes so much credit for NE winning those titles that people forget "he" hasn't won one in almost 10 years.

Manning is the greatest quarterback of all time, and if he wins it this year he will be only one behind Brady, and with most of the all-time passing records on top of that. I can't imagine what Brady's argument will be like at that point, especially considering that he's becoming more known for losing in the playoffs just like Peyton was for all those years.

Edit:

I didn't realize it, but I was curious so I looked. Peyton Manning has a higher passer rating than Tom Brady in the postseason, and their other stats are nearly identical with Brady's being slightly better due to playing in more postseason games. Go figure.

Dr_Rez · 09-17-2013, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forward To Death

Manning's better than him, and always has been.

Brady takes so much credit for NE winning those titles that people forget "he" hasn't won one in almost 10 years.

Manning is the greatest quarterback of all time, and if he wins it this year he will be only one behind Brady, and with most of the all-time passing records on top of that. I can't imagine what Brady's argument will be like at that point, especially considering that he's becoming more known for losing in the playoffs just like Peyton was for all those years.

Tom Brady Records:
Most touchdown passes (Single season NFL record)
Highest playoff win total
Longest consecutive win streak (NFL record)

Manning and Brady Pass completion is almost identical percentage. (Brady passer rating is higher however)

And Brady in 11 seasons has been in 5 superbowls. Manning...2, in more seasons. Bradys team is completely different now and they still dominate, lol at thinking Brady isnt the reason they are so good.

~~butthead aka 216~~ · 09-17-2013, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezdaddy Longlegs

Better than Brady? That is crazy talk. I understand not putting coplete stock in rings but dude.......Brady has way more and is possibly the most clutch qb in the history of football.

This comment will russel some jimmies but I would say he is in the running for best qb ever. If he can get another superbowl (he will this year) then its his title.

its splitting hairs really, i mean i just said brady has earned and deserves to be recognized among the best handful of all time. i dont think peyton had the defense brady had when the pats teams were dominant with bruschi. i love brady but love manning more. i think brady along with belichik are the best pre-game gameplanners ive ever seen and manning is the best pre-play gameplanner ive ever seen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forward To Death

His receiving corps in 2010 was the same as it was for the last 2 years. Hernandez, Gronkowski and Welker is an elite receiving corps.

i dont understand how you can dismiss stokley as nothin without peyton, but consider welker elite when he was headed for a career of mediocrity before brady made him a star. do hernandez and gronk have the same stats with any other team in the league?? not even close. its part brady and part belichek but drafting a couple rookie tight ends and getting a middlign undersized receiver is nowhere near elite

09-17-2013, 10:06 AM	#1671 (permalink)
Christine_Blackwell Groupie Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Texas Posts: 9	I do know what you mean, I know that post season and super bowls don't really measure greatness. Last Super Bowl was quite crazy! Peyton without a doubt is good and will go down as one of the greatest to ever play the game. Yeah I have my issues with Cowboys and Romo. I am not sure I would ever want him on my fantasy, but my QB places didn't get the best players this year anyway...but hopefully I can make a good run as the season progresses. I am 1-1 in my fantasy, and I won this past week, so I can't really complain.

09-17-2013, 03:36 PM	#1672 (permalink)
Forward To Death Trolier Than Thou Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,336	Peyton is already the greatest quarterback of all time. He needed that super bowl so all of the snobs that think you need to win at least one could relax, but even with his playoff resume he just is so much better than any other quarterback that I can think of. He's been more dominant in a league that's radically improved even since the days of Joe Montana. I know Pats fans will push Tom Brady, but realistically he isn't even on the same level, he's the next level down with Brees and Rodgers. Really wasn't the perennial MVP candidate or even a 4,000 yard passer until he started getting the most jacked up receiving corps this league's ever seen. Anyways, I'd be shocked if the Broncos didn't win it all this year. Could see them running the table, actually.

09-17-2013, 04:04 PM	#1673 (permalink)
Thom Yorke Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,848	I dunno, I don't think you can just push Peyton's playoff performances off to the side. I don't really know a good alternative for best QB as Peyton is so much better than anyone in the regular season, but it seems kind of wrong to say the best QB of all time is so much worse when the games really matter. As for Brady, he's had to really adjust his game over the years. He didn't really have much to throw to before he got Welker and Moss in '07, yet he still put up great stats and won 3 Superbowls in that time. He only got to play a couple years with that stacked receiving core and then completely changed his game up to accommodate those losses by having to relying on a slot receiver and two tight ends. The talent that Manning has had to throw to is waaaaay better than what Brady had to work with. And not only was his receiving core better, but it was as stable as you can get. One of the best receivers in the league in Marvin Harrison to throw to for a decade, one of the most underrated receivers of this era in Wayne to throw to for a decade as well, one of the better pass-catching tight ends in Dallas Clark for close to a decade, and one of the most reliable slot receivers in Stokley for 4 years. You simply are not going to find a better receiving core than that that stayed together for such a long time. When you add in the fact that his O-line and especially center stayed the same for Peyton's entire career in Indy, that's a pretty ideal situation to be in. Even looking at what Peyton has to work with in Denver, it's very similar. He now has 3 receivers to work with that looks nearly identical to what he had in Indy.

09-17-2013, 04:39 PM	#1674 (permalink)
Forward To Death Trolier Than Thou Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,336	Games always matter. Regular season wins equate to a shot at the playoffs. Shouldn't Ben Roethlisberger be in the discussion for greatest QB of all time if success in the playoffs is counted? IMO, being the best means that you're just better than everyone else. Peyton Manning has always been better than Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, etc. and if he wins this year, he'll be closing the gap on the only good talking point for the argument that Brady's a better quarterback. It sounds kind of silly that he actually has to win 2 more super bowls before he can even be in the discussion. Also silly that Dan Marino is never mentioned as a possible greatest quarterback of all time, despite having held almost every significant passing record for several years. Brett Favre too. Tom Brady was more like Ben Roethlisberger until the Patriots started to move more towards the pass, Peyton Manning has always been like Peyton Manning, regardless of who his receivers have been. Even without Stokley and Harrison, Manning put up the same stats. Can the same be said for in reverse for Brandon Stokley, who signed a huge contract and then did nothing? Absolutely not. I don't think any of them would have done anything without Peyton Manning, and I don't think Tom Brady would have ever won an MVP without an elite receiving corps. He wasn't even in the same league as Peyton Manning when he won his Super Bowls tbh.

09-17-2013, 05:06 PM	#1675 (permalink)
~~butthead aka 216~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: freely swimmin thru the waters of glory much like a majestic bald eagle soars thru the skies Posts: 1,463	brady won mvp in 2010 without an elite receiving corps. welker was nothing before brady. the difference is that belichek and brady are truly masterminds on the same page. they are more innovative and creative than anyone else and the rest of the league is always playing catch up to them. it looks simple to brady. i do think peyton is better, and the best ever, but the elite masterclass of qbs for me is manning, montana, brady, favre, in no order. brady deserves the recognition, hes earned it with his resume and consistent greatness.