NHL Thread

Thom Yorke · 12-05-2013, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burning Down

Stamkos is apparently hoping to return to the game in early February, but that's only a projection at the moment. The question is will he actually be healthy enough to play when the Olympics roll around. Hockey Canada is starting to build the team right now and I'd expect that they're hesitant to put Stamkos on the roster right now, knowing that he'll be on injured reserve until February. At best he'd be a last minute pick or a wild card.

Babcock said that they'd put him on the roster regardless, and then deal with replacing him if they needed to. I think they name the roster January 7, so we'll have to see then.

Ninetales · 12-05-2013, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Yorke

Ekman-Larsson

Those guys can change games at both ends of the ice. Karlsson and Subban may be the most offensively talented d-men, but they can't give you that shutdown ability that all of the guys listed above can, which is ultimately the most important thing for a defenseman.

Both Karlsson and Subban play against the other teams top lines. And they play predominantly in the other teams zone when theyre on. How is that not good defense??

Also how is Ekman-Larsson better than either Karlsson or Subban. Hes good but considerably worse than both.

Burning Down · 12-05-2013, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Yorke

Babcock said that they'd put him on the roster regardless, and then deal with replacing him if they needed to. I think they name the roster January 7, so we'll have to see then.

Okay that makes sense. I wonder who a decent replacement would be in the even that he can't play. I'm sure that team management is preparing themselves for that.

Also, I guess I missed the Olympic conversation that happened earlier

Thom Yorke · 12-05-2013, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

Both Karlsson and Subban play against the other teams top lines. And they play predominantly in the other teams zone when theyre on. How is that not good defense??

Also how is Ekman-Larsson better than either Karlsson or Subban. Hes good but considerably worse than both.

I know people exaggerate when they say stuff like "offense is the best defense", but it's really not a good way of looking at things, and you completely gloss over important aspects of the game by doing this. There is no sport that sees a change in possession or a change in attacking zones as quickly as hockey. You can be on a breakaway, and a few seconds later have to get back on the backcheck to defend your own zone.

It just isn't as cut and dry as "he's great offensively so it isn't that important for him to be very good defensively". Sure, you can cover some of those deficiencies up by having a roster of 18, equipped with your offensive specialists, defensive specialists, PP specialists, PK specialists, faceoff specialists, etc., etc. However, it is always better to be prepared to play in any situation though, because things can change so quickly.

If we're talking about a top 5-type of defenseman, they really should be able to excel in any situation, and be elite in all 3 zones. I have confidence that those 7 guys I listed can do that. I don't have that same confidence in Subban or Karlsson.

OEL doesn't have the same body of work as some of the other guys I listed, but he's ridiculously talented and consistent. I've seen enough of him to put him in that group already. Pietrangelo is the only d-man I'd take over him going forward if I'm building a franchise around him. Doughty is in the discussion as well.

Ninetales · 12-05-2013, 07:41 PM

No I'm not saying that because he's good offensively that he can afford to be bad at defense. I haven't seen anything from subban that has me convinced that he's ****ty in his own zone. I mean it's not like he loses his assignments in his own zone or is a bad back checker. In fact I'd argue he's above average in his own zone, since he's prolific at getting the puck out and get the team up to the offensive zone. His "bad defensive play" is extremely overrated especially when you look at how Montreal plays with him on the ice/him off the ice. Takes them from an average team to a good one by himself. Same with karlsson (i think karlsson makes more mistakes in his own zone, but the positives he brings wayyy outweigh those)

You bring up possession and subban is one of the best possession players in the league. OEL got torched by the oilers last night so yeah I think his greatness is overrated. He's played alright this season but he's no doughty, pietrangelo or subban yet

Thom Yorke · 12-06-2013, 02:42 PM

^ I'm not saying Subban is bad defensively. I'm saying he's not elite, or anywhere close to that really. All the other guys are, and that's unbelievably important. I think Subban is significantly better defensively than Karlsson though.

Ninetales · 12-06-2013, 04:08 PM

I guess this is just going to continue to be differing opinions but Subban is an elite defensemen in my eyes. Hes no worse defensively than Keith, Doughty, Pietrangelo, etc (or atleast the difference is negligible).

Thom Yorke · 12-06-2013, 10:38 PM

Yeah, arguing over defensive play is actually kind of ridiculous. It's all about how we watch them and it's completely subjective. At least with offensive ability you can reference certain stats and whatnot. I really don't put all that much stock in the advanced defensive stats.

Ninetales · 12-07-2013, 01:06 PM

We're Canadians god dammit we'll debate about hockey all day haha!

I've been getting more and more into the advanced stats part of hockey, which i find incredibly interesting and useful. Most of what I believe of subban (or any player really) has roots in their possession stats. I think it's very predicable of how well they play offensively and defensively.

Thom Yorke · 12-09-2013, 11:28 AM

^ Fair enough. I'm big on the eye test when it comes to D. Just can't fully trust those advanced stats. They can tell you something to a degree, but in no way tell the whole story. Too many variables that you just have to witness for yourself on the ice.

Ugly game between the Bruins and Penguins. What Thornton did was inexcusable and he should be gone 10+, but Neal should be getting more than 5 games for what he did to Marchand. Then to top it off you have Dupuis swinging his stick like a madman and breaking Kelly's ankle. I really can't stand that franchise. Everything they do rubs me the wrong way. I'm fine with the Orpik hit on Eriksson though.

Injuries are starting to pile up for the Bruins, but on the plus side, I'm getting to see the emergence of Kevan Miller. I've been blown away at how good he's been. I've never seen a defenseman step in and be as solid as he has been right away. Granted, he is older than usual to be making his debut, but he's been excellent for having no experience. It's a shame that he could be out from a Phaneuf cheapshot.

12-05-2013, 07:41 PM	#1565 (permalink)
Ninetales Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: livin wild Posts: 2,179	No I'm not saying that because he's good offensively that he can afford to be bad at defense. I haven't seen anything from subban that has me convinced that he's ****ty in his own zone. I mean it's not like he loses his assignments in his own zone or is a bad back checker. In fact I'd argue he's above average in his own zone, since he's prolific at getting the puck out and get the team up to the offensive zone. His "bad defensive play" is extremely overrated especially when you look at how Montreal plays with him on the ice/him off the ice. Takes them from an average team to a good one by himself. Same with karlsson (i think karlsson makes more mistakes in his own zone, but the positives he brings wayyy outweigh those) You bring up possession and subban is one of the best possession players in the league. OEL got torched by the oilers last night so yeah I think his greatness is overrated. He's played alright this season but he's no doughty, pietrangelo or subban yet

12-06-2013, 02:42 PM	#1566 (permalink)
Thom Yorke Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,848	^ I'm not saying Subban is bad defensively. I'm saying he's not elite, or anywhere close to that really. All the other guys are, and that's unbelievably important. I think Subban is significantly better defensively than Karlsson though.

12-06-2013, 04:08 PM	#1567 (permalink)
Ninetales Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: livin wild Posts: 2,179	I guess this is just going to continue to be differing opinions but Subban is an elite defensemen in my eyes. Hes no worse defensively than Keith, Doughty, Pietrangelo, etc (or atleast the difference is negligible).

12-06-2013, 10:38 PM	#1568 (permalink)
Thom Yorke Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,848	Yeah, arguing over defensive play is actually kind of ridiculous. It's all about how we watch them and it's completely subjective. At least with offensive ability you can reference certain stats and whatnot. I really don't put all that much stock in the advanced defensive stats.

12-07-2013, 01:06 PM	#1569 (permalink)
Ninetales Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: livin wild Posts: 2,179	We're Canadians god dammit we'll debate about hockey all day haha! I've been getting more and more into the advanced stats part of hockey, which i find incredibly interesting and useful. Most of what I believe of subban (or any player really) has roots in their possession stats. I think it's very predicable of how well they play offensively and defensively.

12-09-2013, 11:28 AM	#1570 (permalink)
Thom Yorke Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,848	^ Fair enough. I'm big on the eye test when it comes to D. Just can't fully trust those advanced stats. They can tell you something to a degree, but in no way tell the whole story. Too many variables that you just have to witness for yourself on the ice. Ugly game between the Bruins and Penguins. What Thornton did was inexcusable and he should be gone 10+, but Neal should be getting more than 5 games for what he did to Marchand. Then to top it off you have Dupuis swinging his stick like a madman and breaking Kelly's ankle. I really can't stand that franchise. Everything they do rubs me the wrong way. I'm fine with the Orpik hit on Eriksson though. Injuries are starting to pile up for the Bruins, but on the plus side, I'm getting to see the emergence of Kevan Miller. I've been blown away at how good he's been. I've never seen a defenseman step in and be as solid as he has been right away. Granted, he is older than usual to be making his debut, but he's been excellent for having no experience. It's a shame that he could be out from a Phaneuf cheapshot.