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View Poll Results: do you consider yourself a poet?
Yes, I consider myself more than just a singer. My lyrics are everything to me 2 12.50%
No, I'm not that pretentious 4 25.00%
Well, I consider myself both a singer/performer and a poet 3 18.75%
No, I'm not that good. I try to write good lyrics though 4 25.00%
My lyrics suck ass. Hell no 3 18.75%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-10-2010, 06:11 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bogey_j View Post
do you consider yourself a writer first and a [rock] singer second?

would you ever consider publishing a book based on your poems/lyrics?

do you seriously consider yourself a poet?
No. I love writing lyrics and put a lot of effort into them, but I wouldn't describe it as poetry.
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Old 07-11-2010, 01:20 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog View Post
If this were a legal proceeding I'd be asking for the payment of my legal services. I'd encourage you to write your poem in case there's an appeal.

But enough jabs, What do you think constitutes poetry?
Oh all right, I'll be serious. It's true, though, that I really am working on a unicorn poem/song!

I feel poetry is using words to express or inspire feelings, thoughts, or insights by describing them loosely or unusually enough such that readers have to use their own creativity to fill in the gaps and understand the meaning.

Poetry is like a dot-to-dot. The words are the dots and the reader has to connect them to see the meaning of the poem and the poet's intentions. The dots are not all numbered, so the reader has to have an open mind and try to pick out a meaning. There may be a variety of interpretations possible.

Here's a poem I wrote a while ago (as part of a song) to describe my view of poetry:

Quote:
Poet

I can trace your path:
your footsteps stir the dry leaves
on an autumn trail.

Your thought becomes mine,
this distant intimacy
poetry's beauty.

Each silent sentence
you share is like snapdragons
in my childhood.

I squeeze the flowers
to make them talk so we can
ponder this brief life.
So, as this poem says, I feel poetry is like disturbed leaves on a path someone else has taken. The path is not always obvious, so you have to notice the details, the position of leaves, to see the thought path that the poet wants you to follow. Extracting meaning from the poem involves your own creative input...just like making snapdragons "talk" by squeezing them at their base to make the mouth move requires your interaction with the flowers.

Sometimes poems encourage audience participation by only describing one aspect of some subject, such that you have to imagine the rest, or by emphasizing the feel of the words themselves (the rhythm, the meter) to cause the readers to appreciate the sound of the words, which can add to the meaning. Short, clipped, harsh words may be used to describe anger, or soft, gentle words to describe peace. So, words in poems can be used like brush strokes in a painting. Again, these poetic elements require the readers to involve themselves more deeply and imaginatively with the words to extract meaning.

For example, if you notice, each stanza in the poem above is a haiku that can function separately. The poem itself is like a path in which you have to link these separate poems together to see that they are all about poetry. I tried to make the poem be like four separate leaves, guiding the reader on the mental path *I* take when thinking of poetry. Poetry makes me feel like I am a child again taking an autumn walk on a leaf-covered path and interacting with snapdragons I see growing alongside it. The stirred leaves on the path before me, the path itself, and the flowers someone planted (to be observed by another) are all part of what makes poetry drive away a feeling of existential loneliness. Poetry tells you that you are not alone.

Prose, in contrast, usually describes a scenario or thought more clearly and logically such that the reader moves sequentially and simply through the idea. The meaning of the prose is clearer, because the words' main function is to describe a thought as unequivocally as possible. If prose were a path, it would be one marked with a bright red line telling you exactly where to go.

For example, a newspaper article seeks to describe events so that readers can understand them concretely and easily without needing much outside knowledge or creative thinking.

Similarly, novels usually describe situations in concrete terms, though they may function on a poetic level when the reader has to seek a deeper meaning behind the surface descriptions.

What do *you* feel constitutes poetry?
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Old 07-12-2010, 07:43 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Poetry can somewhat be a song. I started writing poetry in 7th grade than starting writing atcaul lyrics. Some poems I write I turn into songs, and some I just leave as a poem. Some sound better as a lyric or as a poem..depends.
I write more poems than I do lyrics. But I'am a writer..
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:37 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I think lyrics are a branch of poetry.

Poetry is an art form that is created through words, therefore lyrics would fall under this. You might even say that its hard to create lyrics because they have to fit in with the song's melodic shape, rhythm, etc.

While many musicians don't take writing lyrics seriously, it is still poetry, just that its really bad poetry.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:24 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA View Post
Oh all right, I'll be serious. It's true, though, that I really am working on a unicorn poem/song!

I feel poetry is using words to express or inspire feelings, thoughts, or insights by describing them loosely or unusually enough such that readers have to use their own creativity to fill in the gaps and understand the meaning.

Poetry is like a dot-to-dot. The words are the dots and the reader has to connect them to see the meaning of the poem and the poet's intentions. The dots are not all numbered, so the reader has to have an open mind and try to pick out a meaning. There may be a variety of interpretations possible.

Here's a poem I wrote a while ago (as part of a song) to describe my view of poetry:


Sometimes poems encourage audience participation by only describing one aspect of some subject, such that you have to imagine the rest, or by emphasizing the feel of the words themselves (the rhythm, the meter) to cause the readers to appreciate the sound of the words, which can add to the meaning. Short, clipped, harsh words may be used to describe anger, or soft, gentle words to describe peace. So, words in poems can be used like brush strokes in a painting. Again, these poetic elements require the readers to involve themselves more deeply and imaginatively with the words to extract meaning.

For example, if you notice, each stanza in the poem above is a haiku that can function separately. The poem itself is like a path in which you have to link these separate poems together to see that they are all about poetry. I tried to make the poem be like four separate leaves, guiding the reader on the mental path *I* take when thinking of poetry. Poetry makes me feel like I am a child again taking an autumn walk on a leaf-covered path and interacting with snapdragons I see growing alongside it. The stirred leaves on the path before me, the path itself, and the flowers someone planted (to be observed by another) are all part of what makes poetry drive away a feeling of existential loneliness. Poetry tells you that you are not alone.

Prose, in contrast, usually describes a scenario or thought more clearly and logically such that the reader moves sequentially and simply through the idea. The meaning of the prose is clearer, because the words' main function is to describe a thought as unequivocally as possible. If prose were a path, it would be one marked with a bright red line telling you exactly where to go.

For example, a newspaper article seeks to describe events so that readers can understand them concretely and easily without needing much outside knowledge or creative thinking.

Similarly, novels usually describe situations in concrete terms, though they may function on a poetic level when the reader has to seek a deeper meaning behind the surface descriptions.
So you're saying that poetry is intentionally misleading? That it can't come right out and say something. And if it were to, its prose? So is this not a poem...

Quote:
I have eaten
the plums
that were in
the icebox

and which
you were probably
saving
for breakfast

Forgive me
they were delicious
so sweet
and so cold
And since you battled me to the death on rhyming, which I've not seen you bring up again, I'm wondering where you stand on that point, and again how that point would relate to this poem as an example.

Looking at waht you've written here I'd say you've combined techniques, the use of syllables and sounds(the scansion system in short), to create 1 half of poetry, and you've projected things onto the discipline. Can you tell me why poetry would, or why prose would not, make you feel less alone?

I'm hoping that out of this question we (everyone) can dig a little deeper into the meaning because I'm looking at the responses and they seem superficial. We could, with some of these definitions, apply nearly anything to anything here. Not to go off on a wild tangent, but whats so great about poetry if everyones considering themselves a poet?

Do we get a tax break for being a poet? Are we given exclusive membership to any club for calling ourselves a poet? No. So I'd ask myself why anyone would. Its jsut a guess, but since all teens and the youthful 20's find everyone idealizing the wild rebellion of the 1960's, and "poetry" as big then with the Ginsbergs and the Burroughs and the Kerouac, I can only guess its a desire to be tied to that culture. But of course, it isn't.

We find ourselves in 2010, with people all over using the word "poetry" to mean something other than what it is. And we project onto it everything we believe a poet and poetry is. Some people back in 1960 used the medium of poetry to deliver a message from a culture we wish we were. But nothing about it has to do with the medium or the art. If the Beat Generation can be cited for anything, its deconstructing what the art was. Since you asked I guess I should answer....

Quote:
What do *you* feel constitutes poetry?
I don't make it my business to regularly perscribe characterisitcs to words and things. Any pretensious post-modernist will tell you that once you define a word, you define too what it is not. For this reason mostly, I don't try and put my finger on what something is. But you asked so...

I feel the art of poetry is to refine something down to its core, the essance of the thing you're looking to comunicate. maybe its a feeling, but it could just as easily be the absense of culture, or the degredation of time.

Whatever it is, its about the economical communication to describe that. Prose has the luxery of taking its time. Poetry comes to its point with only the necessary ingredients. Many poets are accused of looking for "the truth." That phrase carries too much weight for me, but you can see why they say that. You're looking for, as a poet, the radical root, the molecular level, that quintessence that encapsulates any one thing to a T.

And to drag that back to my title, when you see these songwriters claim themselves as "poets", they do so because they're talking about their feelings and how wounded they are. We call this in the greater scheme of things the empirical. Truth through emotion. But you don't have to live a long life to know that emotion does more to blind you to reason and truth than it would ever show you.

To make this a little more personal, I do my very best to be aemotional about the subject at hand. Its the only way I can say I'm being honest about something, but lets forget what I do, let me ask you...

You ever been broken up with and it killed you, and you tried to write about it and it just comes out as swears and "why's" and a bunch of terrible writing you know is terrible when you write it?

We've all been too close to a subject to be able to write about it. Its why when we edit our own work we put days between it. We don't look at it for awhile. I had a playwriting teacher once say to another student that they weren't allowed to write about a recent diagnosis because it was all therapy and no good writing.

Proxemity to emotion kills truth, it clouds core essance, and it makes unclear an honest response. Poetry takes awhile to master, not the art, but individual poems. You should come to it every day and say "yes, thats honestly what it is."At the very least your own.

Poetry is not the goodtime gang, it doesn't comfort you or dress your wounds. Its not chicken soup or that good person you come home to at the end of a long day. Leave that drivel to Hallmark. Poetry is raw, its direct, it should sting slightly when you think about it staring out the bus window. It is a naked reality we don't see constantly because its not easy to look at, or think about. If poetry is what this board maintains, the vague inanity that does little more than to rehash the same old generic wounds of growing up, then we've fooled ourselves and emotion has done more than cloud the truth for us, its clouded any chance or path we have to finding that truth.

You're all free to rhyme, and intentionally make vague your own writings, but I think, even if you come to the same conclusions, about what it is you believe about your writings and whether or not thats what poetry is. I feel like the most diciplined search will lead you to a different conclusion.
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:13 AM   #36 (permalink)
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what are you talking about?

EDIT: i'll get back to this post.
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:32 PM   #37 (permalink)
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what are you talking about?

EDIT: i'll get back to this post.
Ugh, sorry I thought he was dead.

Vegan, if you want to discuss further, feel free to PM me.
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:54 PM   #38 (permalink)
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So you're saying that poetry is intentionally misleading? That it can't come right out and say something. And if it were to, its prose? So is this not a poem...
EDIT: Oops! I posted this before I read your previous post.

Poetry is not intentionally misleading. Instead, poetry requires the reader to use her imagination and her own creativity to understand the essence of the poem. I don't intentionally make poems vague, but instead I sometimes use metaphors that feel more to me like the subject than simply describing it matter-of-factly.

The plum poem *is* a poem according to my definition of poetry, which included this description: "Sometimes poems encourage audience participation by only describing one aspect of some subject, such that you have to imagine the rest."

For example, the poem about plums is not ACTUALLY about plums at all. It is about love of self and other, and the conflict between the two, and the feeling of needing to ask forgiveness of those we love when we know our self-interested choices hurt them. That is my interpretation, at least. So, missing from the poem is the actual subject of the poem. It symbolizes something deeper, and the reader has to identify the deeper message.

Quote:
And since you battled me to the death on rhyming, which I've not seen you bring up again, I'm wondering where you stand on that point, and again how that point would relate to this poem as an example.
I brought up rhyming indirectly when I wrote, "Sometimes poems encourage audience participation by...emphasizing the feel of the words themselves (the rhythm, the meter) to cause the readers to appreciate the sound of the words, which can add to the meaning. Words in poems can be used like brush strokes in a painting. Again, these poetic elements require the readers to involve themselves more deeply and imaginatively with the words to extract meaning."

I didn't mention rhyming since it is one of many poetic techniques that cause the reader to appreciate the song-like qualities of poetry. By song-like I mean the words have a pattern and feeling to them. Rhyming words are like brush strokes that go in the same direction in a painting, or they are like the use of the same color in several parts of a painting to give it a feeling of cohesion.

Quote:
Can you tell me why poetry would, or why prose would not, make you feel less alone?
Poetry makes me feel less alone than prose because the poet is trying to communicate the essence of something to me so that it grips my psyche in a personal way more than prose usually does.

Quote:
but whats so great about poetry if everyones considering themselves a poet?
I like poetry because it expresses the "human condition" and everyone can be a poet. I would be disappointed in poetry if only certain people could be considered poets. I definitely feel every person is/can be a poet, though some people may feel more moved to record their experience of living through words. I feel that categorizing people's written expressions as "poetry" or "not poetry" using a simple definition of poetry puts inappropriate limits on what is considered poetry. There may be poems you like more than others, but that doesn't mean the poetry you dislike isn't still poetry.

Quote:
Are we given exclusive membership to any club for calling ourselves a poet? No. So I'd ask myself why anyone would.
I call myself a poet because I've felt that way since I was 12 and first wrote haiku after reading old Chinese and Japanese haiku. I felt a strong connection to words, meanings, thoughts/feelings and the imaginative playing with those words to represent the writer's reality.

Quote:
[Your definition of poetry]
I don't make it my business to regularly perscribe characterisitcs to words and things. Any pretensious post-modernist will tell you that once you define a word, you define too what it is not. For this reason mostly, I don't try and put my finger on what something is. But you asked so..
It sounds like you are saying what I argued much earlier in this thread: defining poetry limits people's ability to see and appreciate the variety of poetic expression methods that people use.

Quote:
I feel the art of poetry is to refine something down to its core, the essance of the thing you're looking to comunicate. maybe its a feeling, but it could just as easily be the absense of culture, or the degredation of time. Whatever it is, its about the economical communication to describe that. Prose has the luxery of taking its time. Poetry comes to its point with only the necessary ingredients. Many poets are accused of looking for "the truth." That phrase carries too much weight for me, but you can see why they say that. You're looking for, as a poet, the radical root, the molecular level, that quintessence that encapsulates any one thing to a T.
I basically agree with your definition of poetry above, except that some poems are pretty damn long (pages and pages) and some poems are probably simply playing with words/sounds rather than trying to refine some concept or experience down to its essence.

Quote:
And to drag that back to my title, when you see these songwriters claim themselves as "poets", they do so because they're talking about their feelings and how wounded they are. We call this in the greater scheme of things the empirical. Truth through emotion. But you don't have to live a long life to know that emotion does more to blind you to reason and truth than it would ever show you.
I don't expect poems to provide THE truth, but instead the truth as the writer views or feels it at that time. It sounds like you simply don't like poems about people's wounded feelings. Just because you find that subject trivial, overdone, or gushy doesn't mean the writings on that subject aren't poetry, I feel.

Quote:
To make this a little more personal, I do my very best to be aemotional about the subject at hand. Its the only way I can say I'm being honest about something, but lets forget what I do, let me ask you...

You ever been broken up with and it killed you, and you tried to write about it and it just comes out as swears and "why's" and a bunch of terrible writing you know is terrible when you write it?
I do my best to feel every emotion I have about something! I sometimes write things that I feel are terrible writing as I write them...but when I've felt torn apart over someone and write about it, the poem at the moment usually feels very close to how I really feel, and I am not judging it harshly. I usually like it because the act of writing helps me process my feelngs and thoughts. At the time, it feels very right. Later, the poem amuses me. For example, I remember after the break-up of one college 2-year relationship, I wrote a poem that makes me cringe now because I dislike the neediness it shows and the triteness of the descriptions I used. Here's an excerpt:

Quote:
Part of Erica's gushy break-up poem from the college years:

How can you know the sorrow that is there
when I stand in the woods and see him go?
The quiet, whispering trees are left to share
the welling drops of sadness I know so. (GROAN!!!! "Welling drops of sadness" )

If I could hug the sunbeams that slip through
between the greenery I sense above,
I'd pull them to my soul for what I knew
is gone, and I still feel I am in love.
So, when I read people writing similar stuff on MusicBanter, I sympathize with them. I know where they've been. I think their writing is sweet because it is how so many people feel during a break-up. Novel poetry? Probably not. But very human.

Quote:
Proxemity to emotion kills truth, it clouds core essance, and it makes unclear an honest response. Poetry takes awhile to master, not the art, but individual poems. You should come to it every day and say "yes, thats honestly what it is."At the very least your own.
I disagree that one's proximity to emotion (when writing about it) clouds an essance of truth. But that's also because what is truth (in our perceptions) isn't just one thing. Someone (A) who is in love, for example, may view a person in a very different fashion than someone (B) who is not in love with that person. If both persons A and B write about the subject, the poems will probably be very different, but will both describe a valid truth.

Quote:
Poetry is not the goodtime gang, it doesn't comfort you or dress your wounds. Poetry is raw, its direct, it should sting slightly when you think about it staring out the bus window. It is a naked reality we don't see constantly because its not easy to look at, or think about. If poetry is what this board maintains, the vague inanity that does little more than to rehash the same old generic wounds of growing up, then we've fooled ourselves and emotion has done more than cloud the truth for us, its clouded any chance or path we have to finding that truth.
I agree that SOME poetry can sting and is raw because it is the naked reality, but it sounds like you are constraining your definition of poetry based on subject matter. Some poetry does not sting at all. Some is gentle, caressing, commiserating, welcoming. Some is wistful, regretful, loving, resigned.
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If a chicken was smart enough to be able to speak English and run in a geometric pattern, then I think it should be smart enough to dial 911 (999) before getting the axe, and scream to the operator, "Something must be done! Something must be done!"
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:38 PM   #39 (permalink)
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...I think its best if we just agree to disagree and pretend we've never spoken before.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:54 PM   #40 (permalink)
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...I think its best if we just agree to disagree and pretend we've never spoken before.
Excuse me...who are you?
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If a chicken was smart enough to be able to speak English and run in a geometric pattern, then I think it should be smart enough to dial 911 (999) before getting the axe, and scream to the operator, "Something must be done! Something must be done!"
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