P A N

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VEGANGELICA

Hello zevokes,

So far I have listened to your zevokes MySpace music and Twiddophile, since you said the latter is your most recent. I enjoyed the variety of sounds you use!

The first song that I listened to was "Left Open," which has a mellow light sound with you singing with yourself, correct?

After listening to this song, I was then surprised to listen to the others, all of which I'd classify as electronica mixed with your wide variety of instruments! The songs have a meditative quality to me, since your melodies are usually fairly simple but you introduce many different variations and sounds. Your quick panning left or right made the songs grab my attention. There certainly is a lot in them. I liked the complexity.

"Shoot sprout"...I liked the deep hits at 1:40 and 1:56 or so, and especially the flute with its raspy sound (such as at 2:55).). I think this raspy sound happens when the air flow sets up some strange vibrations. Was that you playing? Have you considered using vocals in some of your purely instrumental songs?

"It's called canvas 3009" (I hope I'm reading my notes correctly from last night)...very quick panning L and R. If I had had a headache, I might have felt that quick L to R to L to R got too much, but I didn't have a headache so I enjoyed you playing with where the sound comes from. Lots of sounds...rasping, scratchy sounds, thunder-like sounds, spluttering. It was a longer song and I didn't hear much cohesiveness from start to finish because it seemed to change a lot. A lot of distortion!

"Maude" song...interesting chanted vocals!

"Twidophile"--definitely sounded the most intricate to me. Bell tones, syncopation, rasps, rapid fire hits. I especially liked a little swooping note you used...perhaps the slide whistle? Sometimes I wished that the lower tones in the song were held longer or were deeper, more ominous. Again, I enjoyed the variety of sounds, which kept my interest. At 2:53 you introduced a new overlapping repetitive motif (counterpoint), which I liked.

Summary: the complexity of your music appeals to me. Despite all that goes on in them, your music somehow still seems soothing...perhaps because of the repetition in it. I'll plan to listen to the rest, too!

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P A N

thank you vegangelica for listening and commenting. i did not expect such a strong critique, but i guess that's what music banter is for.

firstly i'd like to say that aside from being a drummer, i am a novice at all the other stuff. i really enjoy experimenting, but like you say with Canvas 3005, cohesion is sometimes hard to achieve when i don't have an idea of what i want before going into it. canvas 3005 was one of my very first attempts at purely synthesized music. honestly, i think i'm going to rip the whole first 1.5 minutes out of it... or i might, anyway. and as for the panning, i've since learned to use the effect of it in a way that is much less hard on the brain. i still like the dramatic shifts, but if you go to far left or right too quick with certain sounds, as you say, is not good for headaches.

"left open" was the first song i ever recorded (and maybe wrote) using my own voice, a guitar, and protools... and some finger-played percussion.

"shoot sprout" and it's flute are synthesized, meaning that the rasp and flutter were generated via lots and lots of time spent fiddling with parameters to get a certain timbre or tone or phase or whatever. i would love to have real instruments, but they are expensive, hiring people to play them is expensive, and quite frankly there are things you can do with synthetic sounds that can't be done with physical instruments, things i'm rather fond of.

Maude Generic Tester. the chanted vocals on that track are the bane in the history of my recording. it's actually called throat singing. that sound is achieved by vibrating both sets of vocal cords at two different (but harmonizing) rates. the reason i call that song the bane is that i really like throat singing and don't think it should be over-used, but when i finalized that project something happened and the chant went out of sync with the rest of the tracks. i think it's like two beats ahead or something. i would correct it, but i make my music on a desktop computer not quite geared for sound, and shortly after i finalized that track my computer crashed and i lost all the data which made up that song. this happens to me all the time, and is why in my MB profile it says that i want a record deal, so as i can spend some money on solid gear and not have to worry about all this sh*te.

twiddophile is currently my favourite synth music that i've made. it took a very long time to make, because the glitch sounds that came out weren't made with some automated plugin which rips sounds up for the user, but rather i actually had to program every single little micro sound to achieve a less "algo-rhythmic" feel and a more random or organic sound. i can't recall if i used a slide-whistle-type VST, but that's definitely possible. as far as low tones, i'm currently doing a bit of research so as i can properly "seat" those kinds of frequencies. as it stands, i find them entirely difficult to manage. i also have this tendency to get too "notey" with the "bass" end, resulting in my never finding lines that i like.

i like that you find my music soothing. not what i expect to hear, but nice to hear nonetheless. i do plan on adding vocals to some newer electronic stuff that i'm doing. well, i'm actually working on it, but find it hard because the sort of sound scape that i create synthetically is one i find hard to mesh with the way my voice works, but like i say, i'm working on it anyway!

the current work that i'm most excited about is actually composed entirely of vocals. lots of chanting and swells, plus a little bit of my voice turned into a synthesizer... inspired to a certain degree by Bjork's album Medulla. i look up to bjork in a really big way.

i hope that answers your questions sufficiently.

and yeah, THANKS FOR YOUR TIME!!! MUCH APPRECIATED!!!

EDIT: i just noticed you said in "left open" that i am singing WITH myself. you are indeed correct. i don't have a good microphone, so i layer the vocals, which gives a little more depth.

VEGANGELICA

You are very welcome, zevokes. Learning about the process others use to make their music is the main reason I'm here!

I like the dramatic shifts, too: they make the song reach out and interact more strongly with me, which I like, but I think it is true that too much panning can be hard on the head.

I couldn't even tell for sure if the flute was synthesized! I also like synthetic sounds because they are distinct from real instruments' sounds...though surprisingly similar sometimes.

There's a thread in the international music section that includes some throat singing! So are *you* doing the throat singing yourself!?

I actually hadn't realized the singing was out-of-phase with the music at the end...now I'll have to listen again more critically!

Your data loss must have been a horror come true for a musician making mostly synthesized music. Do you have an external harddrive that you can use at least to back-up your computer?

I could hear the effort in this song. I appreciate that. Thanks for describing some of the issues you face as you construct music (such as with trying to prevent the bass lines from getting too "notey"). I like hearing about the thought-processes you have as you're constructing the song, because I relate them to my own and learn from them.

I can relate to that issue of not feeling that vocals match the sound of the music one wants.

I'll have to look up Bjork's album Medulla. I'm happy to hear about your excitement over making music, because I love the whole process, too! It's nice to connect via MusicBanter with people who enjoy the creative process in a similar way.

Yep, you answered my questions and you are welcome for my time...I'm glad to help. It helps me, too, to hear what other people are creating.

~ Erica

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P A N

the whole of Bjork's Medulla is composed of only mouth sounds. it's quite amazing. mind you, like me, she's taken tiny pieces of her voice and other peoples' voices and turned them into all sorts of other sounds. so sometimes you're probably thinking, "there's no way that's made of a voice," but it all is. it's very much different from all her other work.

yes, it is me throat singing. my dad got me into it by showing me these Tuvan throat singers, who write their music as messages to the wind and rivers and mountains and so on. i'm not very good at it, but find that rhythmically i can achieve a pretty neat didgeridoo-type sound. there's much more to it than i have time to concern myself with, and by no means call myself a throat singer.

i unfortunately do not have an external hard drive to back up all my stuff. see, i'm the stereotypical broke-ass musician that when he does have money, blows it on instruments, food, coffee, and cigarettes (and bills and rent of course), and sometimes i don't think about the things i REALLY need (ie. external hard drive), which of course bites me in the ass on a regular basis. i'm currently in search of work too, which makes this problem more apparent in my life... but you know, whatever. i think i have some luck coming my way....

what kind of music do YOU make, Erica?
-z.

VEGANGELICA

I listened to the songs on your ilike page, z, and have some more feedback to give.

"Let's Bang," "Spiral Caught" and "Prayer" all remind me of folk songs mixed with Native American chants. When I lived in Wyoming, I liked going to Pow Wows to get close to my Native American roots (of which I, alas, have none), and I enjoyed the chanting and spontaneous drumming that arose among various groups/tribes over the course of the day. Your songs have a lot of repetition, similar to the the chants in the Pow Wows, and your voice is strong. You even do some yodeling!

I had a hard time understanding the vocals (the actual words and their meaning), but in "Prayer" I felt the somewhat bluesy lyrics were very rhythmic, which perhaps relates to you being a drummer: you like complex rhythms.

I also listened to "The Sip" and "Oh Yeah." "The Sip" has an eerie feel and you are doing the throat singing, as well as using piano and drums and a bubbly sound, which give an interesting beat. Again, you use lots of details. I found myself wanting the deeper sounds to be drawn out and accentuated...perhaps lower notes sustained throughout parts of the song to give a more cohesive, solid sound beneath all the intricacies you like.

I realized that one reason your songs sound meditative to me is that they often lack clear build-ups and releases (common in pop music). The energy level doesn't change dramatically throughout the pieces.

In "Oh yeah," an orchestral-sounding song with a repeated motif, there *was* a buildup around midway through (after which "trumpets" enter and the piece takes on a Copland feel). I expected to hear a sudden introduction of drums into the piece near the beginning...something to make the energy rev up to a higher level earlier on. "Oh yeah" was my favorite of those I listened to today, probably because as a violin-player I gravitate to the orchestral sound of this piece.

Your "synthetic" songs verge on being controlled chaos, which is part of their appeal for me. However, I'd prefer more definite build-ups and releases so that I felt more form in the chaos. Also, during "Oh yeah" I found myself wishing again that there were more base to create a solid feel under all the syncopation. I enjoyed very much all the details of the different sounds, and the rhythms, but wanted to hear a clearer over-all shape to the song.

I listened to one of her songs from "Medulla" and can hear she is a musical adventurer.

It's an interesting effect and one I don't know how to achieve. I have enough troubles with regular singing! A didgeridoo sound *is* nice, though.

You mentioned quite openly in the "Spiral Caught" video that one of your goals is to make money through music (which I interpret as meaning you want to survive doing something you love). That has got to be a challenge! Since I like to make music purely for fun, that takes off all stress. Do you find much of a conflict between your desire to make music that you feel is revolutionary, and your desire to make music that people will pay to listen to?

You asked about my music. I make fledgling (as in no songs are in their final form yet!), lyrics-driven music using all "real" instruments (that vibrate the air). I play in my spare time when I am alone in the home, which is infrequent, and so I have less time than I want right now to play. I love the whole process of making/recording music very much, though. Thinking that I'll have a big chunk of alone time to practice gives me something to look forward to for days!

Unlike you, I'd say I'm not the stereotypical musician (except that I do tend to acquire a lot of instruments). I don't know how many middle-aged moms suddenly get the urge to create their own music after over 30 years of playing other people's music in classical music groups! Maybe there are some of us out there. I haven't met any yet!

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P A N

i don't know how much of your post i can tend to right now, (i say that while very much appreciating the time you've taken to form an opinion and post it), but i wanna say something about that video where i say i want to make money to start. it is my belief that i don't play pop music. it is also my belief that the state of popular music's criteria is a dim thing to witness. i don't make money playing music. i just know that i can serve as a medium through which music can pass. i could chalk this up to many years of practice and of playing the drums, or i can look at it as though the will of LIFE ITSELF is inside every note that comes out of my manipulations of space and time. i also believe that anyone is capable of this. but that dim-thing-to-look-at thing runs rampant in the peoples' psychological framework (due to something you could probably call "omni-exposure") effectively obliterating the will of the majority to recognize the "notion" that music is one of the only things that is real. as a result of it being so real, all living things can make music. music is alive in everything around us, and will still be here when we are not. this is very important, i think, that music is in everything, because to recognize this is to bend your perspective... it's not likely that you look at the world as a very complex and beautifully articulated formula or set of frequencies... and when you bend your perspective to account for your own involvement in this enormous and amazing thing, you begin to harmonize yourself with everything else in it... which is exactly what people need to do, because the world is falling apart, whether anyone is in denial or not, and it's simply because we've lost touch with our... with our... hmmm... inner-animals? inherent nature? we're bent and broken versions of a species that was once not ever lost, and our current advancements are brought to us in ways that help us ignore the most great aspects of being human and alive in the universe ... or multiverse ...

when i say i want to make money "making music," i am thoughtfully submitting to the monetary system, knowing full well, that without a demo or a band, or a gameplan for that matter the chances are slim to none. i think money itself is at the very roots of the current state of the human and it's decrepit and lame posture. to be frank, we're f*cking slaves to a system run by men and their dumb and archaic but nonetheless POWERFUL wills. we live in an age of technology where the total amount of information on the planet will double in 10 months. after 1.5 cycles of that, every eight months. awhile after that and we're at a technological state where the amount of information the people on earth have access to doubles every six months. humans are amazing, and the people that make money running corporations (who are effectively the governors of the world) live in fear of the idea that the people as a whole might recognize this. it would not be good for business if the human race just all-of-sudden starting believing in itself. it's possible, if it actually happened that people connected themselves to everything around them rather than isolating themselves to the limited confines of individuality (i think individuality is a concept and is propagated by what is most commonly referred to as culture), that money probably would not be any use, as technology would be open-source and the already-exponential growth rate of that information would go EVEN FASTER... this is the key to abundance.

i also think that people going to their jobs from 9-5 (and yes, i know that people can overcome the odds, but there are still odds, and as long as we succumb to the grips of money and personal gain as a worldwide civilization, tim hortons, subway, the factories, and your local corner store will always need people to work for less than what provides them with any comfort at all, and the rich will hand down their little slice of the empire to their sons, daughters, and grandchildren) is no good. people like to work. people also become happy when they discover they are creative. but this whole mechanized approached to dealing with the concept of time is outdated, and really has no concern for the animal that is a human and its biological clock. it's not set up for evolution to happen. it's not even (believe it, or not) set up to foster the advancement of technologies at its most natural/optimum rate... it's way slower.

so anyway, the videos you've seen and the music you've heard on my pages are just examples of my progress in my experimentation. not really "projects" per se. i put them on the net with it in mind firstly that people and friends might like or be interested in what i'm up to, but also with a sliver of hope that someone with some cash will see what i'm up to and help me out. i have very little resources, but am quite passionate about the ideas i want to spread, and have bad-ass rhythm. although i cannot devote 100% of my energy and time to this, i would like to, and that can only happen if i have a substantial amount of money to work with.

and as for your ACTUAL question (oops, haha) i don't think people should have to pay to see music. i do understand though that stages and "performances" cost money and this is why they do. but no, i do not find that balance difficult, because as i say, i don't believe i make pop music, and if people decide to listen to me, it is because either they already get it, or they like those sounds coming from the speakers and the ideas that are there feel oddly relevant...

that's all for now.

thanks again, Erica.

and, is there any of your music online i can listen to?

VEGANGELICA

Yes, I agree your music isn't pop music and doesn't intend to be, zevokes. My main complaint with popular music is that it sometimes seems vapid and designed mainly to impress. I think the theatricality of popular musicians, who try to appear unique such that the masses admire them, is a strange phenomenon and a little sad, since it seems to separate people from music-making.

hmm...actually I *do* look at the world as a very complex set of frequencies of energy and states of matter!

I agree music is in everything and that there really isn't a divide between musicians and non-musicians. We all make sounds intentionally, which I would define as human-created music. Right now my keyboard is making a pleasant tick-tick-tick-thud sound. Music? I'd say, yes!

While I don't see people as being broken versions of our human ancestors, I do agree that human greed and love have led the planet in directions I wish it weren't going.

Also, with all the distractions (materialism, for example) I think it may be hard for people just to sit back and enjoy our awareness and our participation in existence. I don't know who said it, but I very much like some quote about how we humans are the universe that has become aware of itself. I like that quote because I feel it is true and it does encourage a feeling of unity with everything.

Getting rid of money would be very difficult because money equals power and without it people can't buy food, can't go places, and have essentially no choices in life. I do feel life would be better if governments offered security and support to citizens so that basic life fears (such as how you'll afford food and who will care for you in old age and how will you pay for it?) can be diminished.

I agree very much that people are happy when they discover they are creative and, I would add, capable. I agree that capitalistic exploitation of workers, all for profits of shareholders, is ethically wrong, and I feel requires government regulations to prevent business greed from overcoming concern for fellow humans who, lacking money and power, can be easily exploited.

It is difficult to have the time to be creative when you have to spend a lot of time trying to earn a living. I applaud you for trying to find a balance between the need to make a living and the fundamental urge to express yourself, zevokes, under tough conditions. As someone who is also rather passionate about her causes (you'll see! ), I can relate to your drive.

An advantage of music in the Internet age is that you may not need *too* much money to reach an audience. A disadvantage is that the chance of having a large audience is pretty small since there are so many musicians out there...though this is actually a good thing, I feel, for people as a whole...that is, I'm glad so many people are enjoying being musically creative.

I also like the idea of creating music that says what you want, without catering overly much to what others wish it would be...since then it wouldn't entirely be your music anyway!

I know musicians want to earn a living, so I understand why they charge money for their creations...just as artists charge money for their paintings.

Yep, I have some music online, with the link in my contact information of my profile...and I have one youtube song posted among my lyrics in my songwriting thread. Many of my songs are about people mistreating animals...plus I like to write some non-serious songs to amuse myself and hopefully others! I'm a "radical vegan."

Say, would you like to post some of your lyrics? Like I wrote earlier, I can't follow them completely when you sing them, so I'd like to read some if you wouldn't mind posting them!

~ Erica

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pinballwizard55

very cool!

P A N

wow man. jesus. i could say SO MUCH right now. i'm actually afraid to get going for fear of spending three hours typing... so i'm just going to type out the lyrics of "Left Open," the "acoustic" track on my myspace page. i really like this one, because i did it in like two hours. it just came out one day, and my computer and recording gear all happened to work. (mind you, the sound quality is poor, and i don't care)

here goes:

it's a weird time, this time,
what with all the decisions to consider
the revisions to deliver
and about which way down
which little river
is this little boat gonna go....

it's a fine line
this time between
the heavenly and devilish,
brevities, longevities,
and about which way
will the levy break...
...and how the wave'll carry me down.

i got no paddle
and it doesn't really bother me
cuz all around a before me
is this big, beautiful sea,
shining and beaming
and gleaming and trying
to bring me

out into the open.
that's where i can,
where i stand, where i'm Man...
...and that's still something to live for.

sometimes you just gotta take little second to ask a question;
and, so i say:

did it ever occur
to anyone else
that maybe, just maybe
there's a little baby
in all of us
with a mother out there
who really really really really really really cares
to see us strive
and see us alive...
...and see that our time's not wasted?