VeggieLover

Thanks for commenting. I definetely need help with my chorus in the last song The Dance. It was kind of forced and I'm not used to writing choruses at all! Just some general tips or specific line changes, even a theme change suggestion would be appreciated. My bands basest is very good for the amount of time he's been playing so our songs tend to have a fun base part that he likes to play loudly (not too loudly, just enough to give us a unique sound) and he solos quite often. Our current guitarist is ok, but he's really just a beginner, and our other guitarist is very talented but a bit flakey and shy about his genius. So our guitar parts are usually ok but not astounding. If you want to hear our music just go to Myspace and search Snow State. Even if you google us our myspace comes up on the first page. We only have one song recorded right now, but its ok. It barely has any guitar at all because the guy who recorded it for us was a total stoner and decided that it wasn't good the way we play it live.

Oh, by the way, the song we have on the myspace (Stop Here) wasn't really written by me. I put in my two cents, but my fellow singer wrote the lyrics, and as previously mentioned, I don't really have much use as a riff-maker-upper.

Anyway, give us a listen and maybe then you can hear the lyrics in your head and give me some pointers! thanks a bunch!

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"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."

VEGANGELICA

Hi, VeggieLover,
I'd first like to make sure I understand the meaning behind your song. I see it as describing the pattern living beings follow: pairing off in romantic couples, but also combined in there is the idea of predator-prey relationships, such as when you start by mentioning cats and rats.

I see your stanzas have the rhyme scheme "aabaa" and your Chorus doesn't. Would you like it to follow the same rhyme scheme or break out of that pattern? I'm assuming you are happy with it having a different rhyme scheme.

If I were writing the Chorus, I would probably shift the lines around a little and change the wording a bit so that it keeps the same meter throughout and pairs up rhyming lines more like you do in your verses:

Erica's version:

Twirl, leap--a Grand Jete
march in time
don't step out of line
we're all the same
day after day
but where is it leading?
What are we seeking?

I also thought "seeking" might work better than "seeing" because it sounds a little more to me like "leading" plus still carries the meaning of seeing a goal.

I hope this helps!
--Erica

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VeggieLover

yes, you got the meaning behind the song. "rats and cats" are also common lab animals... I kind of meant for the song to make us think about the things we do everyday. Like a rat in a maze or a cat chasing said rat, its a kind of instinctual "blindness" that we humans are supposedly above. Are we really living and making our own decisions? or are we just doing the steps of a dance, hynotized into doing what the people around us are doing? The theme was taken from my feelings as I am reading 1984 currently and these kind of issues are brought up a lot. Actually vegangelica, the style of this song would be similar to that of Wring that you wrote, though very different, I was going for a similiar creepiness.

I like your rework of my chorus. In my original, the "where is it leading, what goal are we seeing?" line was kind of a bridge and not part of the chorus, but does it make more sense to include it in the chorus??

hmm a rework:
Twirl, leap, march in time
don't step out of line
Recite the good rhyme
day after day
but where is it leading?
what are we seeking?

__________________
"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."

VEGANGELICA

Hi, VeggieLover,
Ah, so that was the bridge! I hadn't been sure, but I decided I liked a longer chorus so included your bridge as part of it. I was reading through your song with the beat in my head and then probably just tried to make the length of the chorus close to that of the verses.

I think many people prefer to make the chorus very distinct from the verses, so maybe they'd like a shorter chorus. As you know, I like long songs...much longer than most people, I think...so it is probably better to stick with your own gut feeling!

I was reading online about pop song structure and the opinion at that particular website was that the chorus should be very short (2 lines only), should include in it a "hook"--some memorable, short phrase and hummable tune that people will remember--and the chorus should include the "hook" more than once. I thought it was interesting to learn more about this "rule" so that one can decide if/when one wants to break it (and know the "rule" one is breaking). In your song Grand Jete stands out most in my mind, especially since I've done quite a bit of folk dancing!
I have two questions about your final verse:
The metaphor during most of the song is that of life as a dance we're forcing ourselves, or are forced, to participate in without questioning it. Then in this end verse you use two more metaphors, hearts made of tin, and the sheet, symbolizing whatever keeps us from seeing true reality. In one of your previous poems the images/metaphors related more to each other (thorns, needles, etc.). Do you want the metaphors in the Dance song to relate more to each other or do you prefer them as they are?

Final question (out of curiosity), what were you envisioning as the realm of sin? I thought this was an interesting phrase because #1 it raises the question of whether there is sin and what it is, and #2 whether the dance in which people blindly participate is actually what is sinful (if one believes in sin).

--Erica

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VeggieLover

That question can be included in the meaning of the line. A lot of the conservative fundamentalists that I've observed seem to live life the way they were taught to live it...ie. the steps of the dance. If these people also happen to be close minded, anything outside of these steps appears to be sinful. By carefully staying in step, they are supposedly keeping themselves out of that realm of sinfullness. However, because the dance in this song is controlling and hypnotic, the participants lose the ability to think for themselves. If you can't think for yourself, how are you to decide what is sinful and what is not?
As far as mixing metaphors, well that is definetelly one of my shortcomings as a writer. I tend to go on little tangents (both in prose and poetry writing) and end up on a different thought altogether than when I started. I think "hearts of tin" works because it emphasizes the mechanical aspect of the dance...but the lining and sheet probably dont. perhaps if i used curtains or costumes instead? or even a wall of people? This world of the dance creates a kind of bubble around the dancers, so i want the image of breaking through it without confusing listeners by changing ideas.

As for Grand Jete...I used it as a forced rhyme originally so thats why I edited it out. Does anyone else see it as a memorable part of the chorus that catches the listeners ear?

__________________
"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."

VEGANGELICA

Hey, VeggieLover,
I like your explanation about sin and how it relates to your song. I like your wall of people idea because when dancing, people do become an obstacle physically that can keep you following the dance steps. Since I love dancing and social dancing (English/Scottish/folk) it is hard for me to view dancing as constrictive because there is so much choice involved in learning the steps. I feel most free when dancing (even when doing a choreographed piece). However, I do definitely see the dance people go through in society.

Since no one else has commented on Grand Jete yet, I will say that the word is memorable to me but the actual meaning (a leap through the air with legs split, usually done by advanced dancers *well* and by the rest of us for fun as we imagine ourselves to be advanced dancers) probably doesn't happen often in a regular dance of society, so its absence from your song might be appropriate. Still, it does stick in my memory. Many people may not know what it is, though!
--Veg

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VeggieLover

Yes, i do think i will leave Grand Jete out and find something else to catch the attention. As i was writing the song i kept having those images of the ballroom dances where everyone is in perfect unison doing the same lifts and steps in basically the same attire. Personally, I think any form of dance is liberating, but its an image that i thought portrayed my idea well. I will rewrite and post again!

__________________
"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."

VeggieLover

This is just a short little word sketch i wrote, if u've got the time, id appreciate feedback. Also, if you can think of a better name then Ivy, id appreciate it.

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It was the first fragile drops of sunrise that tickled Ivy’s cheeks and woke her. Playing off the dewdrops that had settled on each eyelash, the rays illuminated the canopy above, revealing each leaf’s delicate web of veins and, hidden among the dizzying green, the gold that would not show itself until late in the season. A joyful chorus greeted the Day, birds trilled ecstasy into the steaming morning while, unseen, the last of Night’s creatures skittered into the shadows to sleep. Here, Mother Nature reveled in every transition, every flutter and flight, every song. Here, the forest had a heartbeat of its own.
Blinking away the silk of playful spiders, the nymph sat up and stretched. A fast growing
Citatus Vine had wound itself around her ankle in the night. Careful not to harm it, she removed it from herself and wove it into the structure of her bed.
The nest sat cradled in the branches of an elm tree, constructed entirely of living branches, mosses, vines, and the occasional gift of down from a generous mother bird. To the untrained eye, her modest bed was virtually invisible, indeed, only she and her closest animal friends knew its hiding place. Here she slept during the warmer months of the year. From the branches of her Mother Tree she could hear virtually all of the activities of the forest, and greet the great orb of Grandmother Moon when she lifted her face above the trees. As long as Ivy’s elm was alive and well, so would she be, each protected the other.
Swinging silently down from the branches, she hit the forest floor in a crouch, her toes digging into the soft summer earth. A nymph lives in harmony with the creatures of the forest, but caution was nevertheless necessary. Listening attentively, she brushed her long auburn hair out of her emerald eyes and stood, bracing herself against the warm bark of the elm.
Had any human eye been around to see her, it would have been mystified, frozen, unable to even glance away. Her ivory skin contrasted deeply with the rich greens and browns that surrounded her, but reflected them too – so that she seemed to fade in and out of view, merging with her environment. As it was mid-summer and warm, there was no need to hinder her body with garments, but vines entangled themselves in her hair. In fact, upon closer look, it seemed that the vines had even succeeded in embedding themselves into her very skin. All up her back the faint green tendrils could be seen tracing the ripples of her muscle as she turned about to face her day. But what really caught the attention was her eyes. A man might be trapped forever looking into those eyes. It seemed that the endless wisdom of the ancient forest lay hidden in that elusive green. Storms that had ripped up saplings by the roots still raged there, but the soft drowsy summers of decades past resided there too, softening the forest’s pain with a blanket of time. Long lashes blinked calmly and curiously at the world around them, framing these huge windows into the soul of the forest. Like a fairy’s ring of mushrooms, Ivy’s eyes could trap and bind a mortal with a single glance, making his only wish be to run with her among the trees reflected in those deep pools of green.

__________________
"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."

VEGANGELICA

Hi, VeggieLover,
Your fantasy world for Ivy is rich with detail. I especially liked the detail of the vines tracing her muscle (would it be better to say muscles?).

If you wrote "a person" instead of "a man," you could broaden Ivy's appeal. Wouldn't all people be mesmerized by such a creature? Currently the piece sounds like the fantasy of a young woman wanting to be loved and adored by a man; if you broaden it to describe how the nymph would lure *all* people in, then this somehow makes the piece sound less like wish-fulfillment and more like fantasy/science fiction. For example, you could write, "Ivy’s eyes could trap and bind mortals with a single glance, making their only wish be to run with her among the trees reflected in those deep pools of green."

One line that broke me out of the fantasy world is the one where you compared her eyes to a "fairy's ring of mushrooms," because the image of a ring of mushrooms makes me start to think of her eyelashes as being like a ring of mushrooms, which would look...odd.

Hmmm. The name Ivy. I actually would replace the first "Ivy" (which you place in the first sentence) with "her" and leave her unnamed until after you have described her as a nymph. A name so strongly labels and confines a person that it limits one's imagination of her, I feel, especially since a large point made in your description is that Ivy is not just an individual but part of/an extension of the whole forest.

Perhaps you could sneak the name in by adding something to this line you wrote:

"A fast growing Citatus Vine had wound itself around her ankle in the night, which seemed fitting since she was called Ivy by those who knew her."

I can't really think of a name that seems more appropriate than "Ivy." If I do, I'll let you know!

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VeggieLover

thanks for your comments, now that i re-read, i agree with you on the whole "man" thing...though nymphs are infamous for their seductive powers, men are not neccessarily the only ones subject.

And i loled at the eyelashes being mushrooms image, that hadn't even crossed my mind.
One reason I don't really like Ivy is because it's such a commen "nymph" name, or if you've played Soul Calibur, all you can think of is this idealized big busted/butted blonde woman who can kick ppls butts (maybe thats just all i can think of when i hear the name Ivy) I kind of wanted something more Latin based, but if i just scroll through a latin dictionary and point, it isn't going to fit right, even if its a nature word.

__________________
"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."