About writing!
 

Seeing as this forum is about song writing, I guess it's not inappropriate to veer from reviews and onto some meta-writting topics. I was just wondering what people's personal thoughts on lyric writing were (why you do it? personal aims in writing a song? way you go about it? personal inspirations?), and what kind of music you tend to like or emulate. Just thought it might be an interesting point of discussion, because I imagine it would be wildly varried across writers. :D

keep it simple, only a few people are good enough to be exceptionally in depth and clever about their lyrics and manage to make them then follow on by sounding good over a song, it's as much an acomplishment to write lyrics with simplistic values but that fit fantastically well over a song, take ac/dc for example, fantastic lyricists and their lyrics weren't very in depth at all.

Plenty of songs have lyrics that are incredible and fit over the music well. Just because you make lyrics simple with the excuse that you'll have an easier time putting them over the music does not excuse the fact they are crap.

the simplicity of the lyrics shouldn't dictate wether or not you'd define the lyrics as 'incredible', since when did lyrics need to be so in depth? that's poetry, not lyrics. and i'd like to note that i haven't once posted my lyrics on this thing, i was just saying in my opinion there should be more focus on creating lyrics that fit well with a song than lyrics that are overly emotive.

but you can be a **** and jump the gun with the false assumptions and misinterpritations if you wish.

My mistake.

Um, guys! The post wasn't meant to inspire bickering. I'm presupposing that people will have different philosophies on lyric writing. I was just trying to tease out those differences and purposes. Like simple lyrics can have different purposes. Maybe they're deceptive in their simplicity (i.e. have alot of subtext), maybe their unashamedly one-dimensional. That's okay. No matter what, they're gonna convey something about the aims of the writer. What they're trying to get out of writing like that...ya know? It's not a competition about what type of writing is best.

And the whole "that's poetry not lyrics"...well, it's kind of interesting you should say that, because artists like Patty Smith actually aimed to meld music with poetry, quite openly. (as I write this I see a_perfect_sonnet has raised the same objection). But, maybe theres a point in that. Maybe being emotive for it's own sake isn't enough. Maybe there are conflicting aims in some peoples songwriting, a sort of inconsistency in the content? I'm not saying one way or the other, but it could be a part of moley's complaints. Actually I'd love to hear you expand on that...cause I get the feeling you're not dismissing all poetic lyrics as a rule, but maybe are eluding to something else.

What's the problem with simple songs? I write simple songs all the time and I don't see the problem with them. Writing them all off as crap is stupid. I can relate more to the people that write simple songs than those who create deep, vague ones.

The you shouldn't have joined MB. Heh.

Why shouldn`t lyrics be simple?

If I buy an album I don`t want to hear the lead vocalists life story 15 times over

oh im sorry, since when did 'decent' lyrics have to be so in depth is what i meant to say....

Are you implying that bickering is part and parsel with a song writing forum? Because I hate to inform you, but it's about song writing.

At least it should be.

I know you're young, but still, I think you're old enough to know that.


Is anybody here serious about writing? Does anybody even have a clear idea about why they write the way they do? The point of devoting so much time and energy towards it?

...because I'm left here asking myself, Did they not understand what this thread was about? Do they really have no idea about their aims as songwriters, and how their writing style relates to their aims?

Because this thread had NOTHING to do with whether one style is better than another. Even the most banal, cliche pop-lyrics have a purpose.

Seriously...I keep waiting for something...anything to be posted which relates to the thread, but it's like nobody even read the question properly. *sigh*

I suppose I write the way I do because that is the way I work. I don't think about deep things and the like so it is easier for me to avoid writing in a deep and vague manner. I do it sometimes when I am looking for the challenge, but usually I stick to simple writing because it is what I am best at. Maybe someday those simple lyrics will evolve into more thought provoking ones but at the moment I am comfortable writing the way I do.

People always bicker in the songwriting forum [at least in my threads haha], not to mention the other forums, as well.
Tutut do not call me young. *shakes pointer finger at you*

i didn't mean to argue, in my first post i was simply forming my opinion and discussing what i thought was the best way to write but i was unjustly antagonised for having my own opinions!

Hobojesus: Yeah, I get you. Also, I think that maybe it's more of a challenge avoiding that perceived pressure to come up with grand 'life and death' pearls of wisdom in every song and stick to simple themes.

In high school we studied this book of poetry by Bruce Dawe called 'sometimes gladness'. My english teacher was explaining that it's brilliance lay in how Dawe embraced the mundane and everyday. At the time I was reasonably new to lyric writing and kept wanting to find something to write about that would be totally earth shattering and deep. But studying that book really made me rethink that approach. I think maybe view of how life should be has become very romantisized and removed from reality, like it should unfold like an epic saga, that we should all achieve greatness and/or massive fame. But reality is scouring pots, doodling idly in margins, jumping from foot to foot keeping warm at the bus stop....it's just ordinary things...and we shouldn't be so dismissive of them.

And sorry for sounding all narky myself moley. Yeah, I understand. having your opinions antagonized is crapola. You're totally right about the whole ac/dc thing. I mean, they're just the right type of lyrics for their music. Maybe it's easy to be a bit of a lyric snob and dismiss certain songs because their words ain't literature; but expecting every song to be so cerebral, is pretty daft. Plus, what else are we gonna air guitar to? I mean, rock...rocks! \m/

:D

Sorry everybody else, but I quite like the bickering.

Coughlearnhowtouseadictionaryproperlycough.

Look at it, they split up the 'lyric poem' and 'music' definitions of the nouns. Why could that be? Maybe because they are different?

The part which you quoted relates to lyric as an ADJECTIVE. Moley mentioned 'poems' and 'lyrics' which in that context were undoubtably the noun forms and you argued back with the definition of the word as an adjective.

Get your act together!

your both good people:D

and no need to apologise skiesofganymede, i wasn't pissed off or anything, and your completely right,

Why all the nit picking over what a dictionary says , whatever happened to poetic licence

some dude pulled out some dictionary definitions, i think he was trying to argue that lyrics and poetry were essentially the same thing.

Yeah, sorry Urban. It was just a passing 'Briana Banks moment'...I just had to get anal...:eek:

None of you are good writers anyway, so I can see why you wouldn't understand that lyrics are a form of poetry. Kudos to your ignorance.

lyrics CAN be a form of poetry, that's what your not understanding, they dont HAVE to be poetry, and well leave it to the majority to decide who is ignorant, the majority being everyone you just insulted.:nono:

You are lost on the fact that all lyrics are poetry, not all poetry is lyrical, aren't you?

im not lost at all, im just in complete disagreement with you.

A lyric, is a poem. Anytime lyrics are written it is poetry, because lyric is a form of poetry. Not all poetry consists of lyrics though.

i was under the impression that it could be put across as simply 'literature'

words written over a musical melody so to speak, hense forth are lyrics but...

the narration to peter and the wolf is not poetry it explains what the different features of the orchestra represent, the verse to demon hunter along with alot of other steeleye span songs are simply stories, they're not written to have any poetic license to them
and once in a life time by talking heads the verse is more of a speach really.

they're still all lyrics, just not what would be considered poetry.

Ha, sure, I don't even know the recent crop of writers but such sweeping accounts of generalism and arrogance can never be write. Secondly, what are your qualifications to judge anything?

Me personally, I cannot write just to write. I have to be inspired by something, an event, person, thing, etc. But when inspired I think that is when the true magic of writing happens. It definitely doesn't happen when it is "forced"!

I'm going to carry on with the anal-ness...

Now, for something to fit a definition (using a dictionary) it has to fit only one of the definitions found there. Only one. A 'lyric' can fit the last definition (words put to music) and at the same time not fit any of the 'poem' criteria. Yes, a lot of lyrics - certainly most of the memorable ones - will fit into definition 1, although this characterisation seems to require them to have a meter, some rhyming etc. Vocals which are just sung to fit a tune, with words which are crammed into the melody like many rock bands do, do not count as poetry.

I love Muse, but could you really saymost of their lyrics are poems?

heh, they're dictionary bashers dude, they sit around forums all day trying to correct people, just pretend they're not there and they might go away, and we can get back to discussing music.:) (yay!)

Yeah, sorry again, its just when someone tries to play the geek card I can't help but play mine.

Plus, when you said this
You also summed up my own opinion excellently and I would happily argue the arse off anybody who disagreed with you.

i think its grand:) you seem to discourage them atleast.

i might start posting my lyrics on this thing actually, s'pose i better write some.

You're right, We have been sidetracked a lot by griping. As you can tell, for a bunch of us here, our aim is to convey a story to music, using language which is simple enough that our story doesn't get lost in the vocubulary.

The way that I go about songwriting is like this...

1. With my band we come up with a guitar riff, from which we develop a complete band backing and write most of the instrumental part to the song.
2. While we're writing the rough instrumentation to the song, I'll be singing different vocal melodies over the top, until I hit upon a particularly effective one (or a few)
3. From the best vocal melodies, I'll come up with a selection of lyrical hooks for the chorus melody.
4. I'll keep a number of these chorus melody/lyric combinations stewing in my head for a few days... what I'll usually do is have no set topic for the song and will come up with a lyrical topic for the whole song based on the chorus hookline.
5. Once I've set myself on one topic I'll write the verse lyrics for it pretty quickly and will prune them to fit the music.
6. This is how I write about 80% of the songs for my band, most of the others were written on acoustic (lyrics and music simultaneously) and only one was written before being put to music.


My reasons for writing music is purely that, to write music (because I love music and love writing it), although for writing lyrics I try to do two things:

1. Write about a topic that I've at least thought about it enough to have enough creative missiles to throw at it.
2. Write about something that a lyric hasn't been written about before.

And achieve these things I do, mmmm.

how we write,

usually it consists of our lead singer/ guitarist first developing the guitar part or atleast most of it, then we'll decide on a vocal melody. then he'll write the lyrics, usually his lyrical influences shine through, his lyrics are simplistic and tend to take the piss out of different features in our local society, for instance our last song was made to completely take the piss out of a type of people that generally dominate our school.
and his latest song 'dirty dan' though he wont admit it is about his ex girlfriend dan who was a sleazy tart that got round alot:).
there's not much to say about the way he writes he simply writes to the vocal melody and tries to make it flow, then we lay down the bass and drums and fiddle a bit, usually in the recording of our songs hell almost always harmonize his voice over for the chorus which is sure enough most likely going to be a vocal hook, heh hes ac/dc obsessed, he'll always use a vocal hook. so yeah that's how we write ours.

DontRunMeOver: *sigh* I'm so incredibly jealous. Setting a theme and going with it, is a skill I am yet to master.


Reznorslave: Argh, it is so true. So many pages of lyrics scribbled out, ripped up and thrown out because they were written under duress. The worst is the feeling that the emptiness of forced lyrics will be apparant. That anyone who reads them will see through the facade. You're totally right about being inspired.

Even so, I don't think i've ever had a clear pre-writing inspiration, only a niggling feeling that something warrants more attention. I was wondering, do you have a clear idea what you're gonna write before you start? It seems like it would be difficult.


Moley: aww, the poor girl :D Nothing quite like an unflattering immortalisation in song. It's up there with memorable F-U's, eh!

Go the vocal hooks! Although the darn things infect your brain...start unconsciously headbanging and or humming in the middle of exams or in the silent area of the library!...dirty looks from the library folk and/or person next to you. Damn you and your kind :D!

All lyrics, are poetic.
Prose is not lyrics as you tried to use as an example Moley.

In that sense, any time a song is 'spoken' we call that 'spoken word'. The only reason they are sometimes refered to as lyrics is because people are used to songs consisting of lyrics, and still refer to spoken word as lyrical which it is not. Lyrics are poetry. There for all lyrics are poetry, but all poetry is not lyrical so therefore not all poetry is lyrics.....get it?

^ nicest guy on the forum.

Seriously, man...your poetry isn't that great either. Stop using the internet to feel better about yourself.

To consider something as poetry, by the normal definitions, it has to use language in a way which is more beautiful, or more rhythmic, or more vivid, or somehow more creative than the way in which language is typically used in everyday conversation. I agree that MOST lyrics are poetic/poetry, but it is entirely possible to sing non-poetic words to music, fitting them to a melody, which is enough for them to be described as lyrics. The pure fact that they are sung isn't enough to promote the words to the title of poetry, as the definition of poetry comes from the use of the use of vocabulary and grammar, not from the context in which that vocabulary and grammar is read.

AC/DCs lyrics, however (although Moley disagrees), are a form of poetry but they are very simple and clear poetry. They do use metaphor, rhyming and specific meters, so they definitely count as poetry.

To consider something as poetry, by the normal definitions, it has to use language in a way which is more beautiful, or more rhythmic, or more vivid, or somehow more creative than the way in which language is typically used in everyday conversation. I agree that MOST lyrics are poetic/poetry, but it is entirely possible to sing non-poetic words to music, fitting them to a melody, which is enough for them to be described as lyrics. The pure fact that they are sung isn't enough to promote the words to the title of poetry, as the definition of poetry comes from the use of the use of vocabulary and grammar, not from the context in which that vocabulary and grammar is read.

AC/DCs lyrics, however (although Moley disagrees), are a form of poetry but they are very simple and clear poetry. They do use metaphor, rhyming and specific meters, so they definitely count as poetry.