Led Zeppelin is the greatest band ever

**Frownland** · 10-17-2017, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

jazz seems for those that experience ego death and arrive at complete freedom

~~MicShazam~~ · 10-17-2017, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

jazz seems for those that experience ego death and arrive at complete freedom

the mainstream stereotype of jazz listeners is, funnily enough, that they have huge ego's

not that I mean to imply anything with that

More seriously, I kind of like constraints. They're good for art. Constraints lead to crystal clear ideas and carefully sculpted shapes. It's like a game. Rules and boundaries make the game.

**Frownland** · 10-17-2017, 06:31 PM

Ja I think the jazz musician is like the opposite of the ego death. While there's a lot of group dynamic of course, there is a high degree of individuality in the freer sides of the genre. I guess you could call it an ego death in terms of becoming the ego or something confusing like that.

Trollheart · 10-17-2017, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I do get the feeling all roads eventually lead to jazz

They don't. I'm 54 and I still don't like jazz. I can tolerate some of it, but I'd never (almost never) listen to it for pleasure. I even started a jazz journal once. It lasted, I think, eight posts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

But those who don't like free jazz (or any genre, really) mostly dismiss the genre because they are assigning inappropriate requirements that don't make sense for that genre, like expecting a jazz album to check all of the boxes of what makes a great country record. I think we've had this conversation before. Someone who listens to free jazz has a better understanding of it than someone whose knowledge of the genre is ------limited------

No I understand that: if you don't understand free jazz you don't get free jazz. But if he, or you, is or are asserting that that then makes you superior in your taste with respect to ALL OTHER genres, then no. Not liking jazz does not make you limited. It just means you don't like jazz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicShazam

the mainstream stereotype of jazz listeners is, funnily enough, that they have huge ego's

not that I mean to imply anything with that

Yes you do.

~~MicShazam~~ · 10-17-2017, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Yes you do.

The last one I remember talking to did have a pretty clear snobby streak. That was just one guy though.

**Frownland** · 10-17-2017, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

No I understand that: if you don't understand free jazz you don't get free jazz. But if he, or you, is or are asserting that that then makes you superior in your taste with respect to ALL OTHER genres, then no. Not liking jazz does not make you limited. It just means you don't like jazz.

My guess is that OH respects the taste of people who can appreciate a genre that is very inaccessible from a mainstream point of view because it suggests that they are very much their own mind when it comes to appreciating music. That, and someone who also inhabits a favourite niche of yours is likely to have similarly good taste.

OccultHawk · 10-17-2017, 06:40 PM

u

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

I think I'm reading this wrong so by all means tell me if so but: are you saying that if someone is not into free jazz you will discount their opinion on any other music, or on free jazz? Or, are you (as I think you are) saying that, whatever the genre, you'll only give credence to the opinion of someone who is familiar with it? As in, if I said punk is **** you'd say (and you'd be right) that I don't know what I'm talking about because I've listened to so little?

That's an arrogant thing to say now really. Just because someone doesn't like free jazz does not mean they're limited. Different strokes, man.

Another arrogant thing to say. I may have plenty of knowledge and understanding of, say, soul, but not like it. That doesn't mean I'm limited just cos I don't like soul. But I would agree - and I've been guilty of this in the past - that you shouldn't diss music you haven't at least listened to.

Free jazz and some other types of atonal music are still the pinnacle. Once I discover someone knows their **** about that I assign more merit to their opinion about any genre than a music lover's opinion who isn't hip to the avant garde.

For example:

I say that my favorite Slayer record is South of Heaven. Bat says Hell Awaits is better and Frown says Reign in Blood. Until proven otherwise by my own ears I will give more merit to Frown's opinion because he knows more about free jazz than Bat. Even though Bat knows more about metal I respect Frown's opinion more because I respect the opinion of someone who likes free jazz over a metalhead's even if the topic is metal. If you understand free jazz I know for sure you get the subtleties of other genres. However, if Frown said straight out that he doesn't like metal then that voids his opinion.

Trollheart · 10-17-2017, 06:42 PM

I'm a bit disappointed he didn't answer me to be honest. I would like clarification.
From him.
Also, I await your response to my overtures towards peace in Batty's thread. Has your envoy been delayed in Customs? Say the word and I'll push that **** through in a hurry, we'll get him on his way. This is too important to allow red tape and petty bureaucracy to stand in the way.

~~MicShazam~~ · 10-17-2017, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

My guess is that OH respects the taste of people who can appreciate a genre that is very inaccessible from a mainstream point of view because it suggests that they are very much their own mind when it comes to appreciating music. That, and someone who also inhabits a favourite niche of yours is likely to have similarly good taste.

I think it's safe to say that everyone in here is very much "their own mind" when it comes to their music tastes. We've all dedicated a large number of hours and years to exploring various nooks and crannies of the music world. I can't see the difference between exploring jazz in depth and exploring traditional world music in depth.

Trollheart · 10-17-2017, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

u

Free jazz and some other types of atonal music are still the pinnacle. Once I discover someone knows their **** about that I assign more merit to their opinion about any genre than a music lover's opinion who isn't hip to the avant garde.

For example:

I say that my favorite Slayer record is South of Heaven. Bat says Hell Awaits is better and Frown says Reign in Blood. Until proven otherwise by my own ears I will give more merit to Frown's opinion because he knows more about free jazz than Bat. Even though Bat knows more about metal I respect Frown's opinion more because I respect the opinion of someone who likes free jazz over a metalhead's even if the topic is metal. If you understand free jazz I know for sure you get the subtleties of other genres. However, if Frown said straight out that he doesn't like metal then that voids his opinion.

Posted before I saw your post, or possibly before you posted it.

Meh, you disappoint me. So you would take Frown's opinion over someone who clearly has made metal their life, just because he likes or can appreciate fj? Sigh.

10-17-2017, 06:31 PM	#233 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	Ja I think the jazz musician is like the opposite of the ego death. While there's a lot of group dynamic of course, there is a high degree of individuality in the freer sides of the genre. I guess you could call it an ego death in terms of becoming the ego or something confusing like that. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

10-17-2017, 06:42 PM	#238 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	I'm a bit disappointed he didn't answer me to be honest. I would like clarification. From him. Also, I await your response to my overtures towards peace in Batty's thread. Has your envoy been delayed in Customs? Say the word and I'll push that **** through in a hurry, we'll get him on his way. This is too important to allow red tape and petty bureaucracy to stand in the way. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018