Anyways, I'm 100% done with this issue. I really don't care for discussing race issues, and that's really what this has become about more than anything, even though I was arguing pretty much entirely from a music standpoint.

I love black people and the music they've made over the years as much as anyone else, but skin color isn't an issue to me. I like the music and I'm comfortable just knowing that it's good music, and don't get hung up on whether or not this artist or that artist doesn't get nearly as much recognition as they should have, since I think there's probably thousands of artists that don't get the recognition they deserve. Older music that founded everything we listen to now in general is way overlooked, but it doesn't really matter, it just means that there's more music for me to listen to that others don't know about.

I think it was a joint effort in popularizing it but I still stand firm that African Americans were the original pioneers

No I am not going to shut up about it because it is apart of music history and anybody is a fool to deny that part of music history. It is so easy for people of the different persuasion to speak on matters and experiences that they never had to endure themselves. They want people to keep quiet about it because those issues do not affect them. I am not going to keep quiet about it because I am tired of the discrimination legendary black artists receive. Its not an opinion, it is a fact. It is a fact that white labels sought out unsigned black artists, took their songs and gave it to major white artists. It is a fact that black artists did not have the same opportunities as white artists during the civil rights and Jim crow eras.


I never said that black people don't steal either but during that particular era it was more common for major labels from ANY genre to scout unsigned black artists and even the black artists that were signed. They would listen to their demos that were deemed potential hits and pick the ones they wanted to have for their major white artists on their major labels. That is why you have two versions of the same songs by white major artists and one by a black artist or unknown one from those eras. I am not saying this is the case for EVERY single white artist during this era but it was MOST common during this era and especially in the rock n roll genre.




Okay, where are the songs that they stole?

Where are the writing credits that they stole?

Where did they steal their dance moves and performance style from?


When did I deny Elvis impact? I have consistently said that he is an icon and is the most successful artist of his genre. I just think he gets overly credited for things that he did not innovate himself such as: his dancing, performance style, singing style, songwriting credits etc. You keep telling me to show you proof of my explanations but I have lol I have supported my opinion pretty well I think.

He idolize Jackie Wilson and studied his dancing and copied it. I think he even copied his singing style as well. There are pictures of Elvis at Jackie Wilson's concerts and shows which I even posted above. Elvis has even said he admire Jackie and other black musicians. I am not going to post every single Elvis song and give you credits but alot of his songs were written by African American songwriters and musicians. Its all on the internet for all to see. Elvis did not write any of his songs or was involved in the production of his music. I think the others I mentioned had more impact musically because they were actually involved in the production of their music and the sound. They all played multiple instruments, wrote their music and really transcend the genre musically. Also, their singing styles as well.




I stopped reading after the bolded. This is a really ignorant statement. I don't see how you can possibly categorize white people being discriminated against the same as how African Americans were discriminated against.

White people's records were not being black listed because they were white
White people did not get denied access to hotels and award shows because they were white
White people were not getting snubbed nominations because they were white
White people were not fearful of their lives when they had to perform in the South


I think it is absolutely insulting that you honestly believe white musicians had the same struggle and hardships as African Americans musicians during the Jim Crow era when they did not.






I am not going to look it up either because it is all on the internet for all to see. I don't have to lie about anything to prove a point but just on the top of my head


Otis blackwell (renowned African American songwriter)- wrote Elvis's "Don't Be Cruel", "All Shook Up" which he originally recorded but like I said..... Elvis scouted the African American rock n roll songwriters/musicians because it was easy to cover their music without crediting them.

He heard Otis version and really liked it which is why he wanted to record those songs and it became a hit. Of course nobody knows about Blackwell's original versions though.


NONE of those black songwriters got a nickle from those Elvis songs, NONE.
Sad really when you think about it. The Elvis Estate is worth a billion I don't see why the family of those songwriters can't be compensated.


It did exist and I already told you Fats was recording and performing rock n roll way before Elvis was even signed. There were unsigned black artists that were doing rock n roll way before Elvis was even signed. Where do you think he got his songs from? lol




I gave you an example lol Did you look up Fats on youtube and researched about him? Fats was already on the scene before 1954 with hits. He pioneered it before Elvis. You have to do some work too. lol I am not going to sit here and do all the work.

It has everything to do with the media because the media has brainwashed you into believing that Elvis is the end all be all of rock n roll and that white people helped in pioneering it when they did not. African Americans pioneered the genre.


How can you talk about facts and dates when you have not listed that yourself? You keep arguing that Elvis was the first to bring rock in roll on the scene in 1954 and I debunked that.


This is from wikipedia:

Fats Domino first attracted national attention with "The Fat Man" in 1950 on Imperial Records. This song is an early rock and roll record, featuring a rolling piano and Domino doing "wah-wah" vocalizing over a strong back beat. "The Fat Man" sold one million copies by 1953.[3] Fats Domino released a series of hit songs with producer and co-writer Dave Bartholomew, saxophonists Herbert Hardesty and Alvin "Red" Tyler and drummers Earl Palmer and Smokey Johnson. Other notable and long-standing musicians in Domino's band were saxophonists Reggie Houston, Lee Allen, and Fred Kemp, Domino's trusted bandleader. Domino finally crossed into the pop mainstream with "Ain't That A Shame" (1955), which hit the Top Ten, though Pat Boone characteristically hit No. 1 with a milder cover of the song[4] that received wider radio airplay in a racially-segregated era. Domino eventually had 37 Top 40 singles.



It even pointed out the fact that a white artist received more credit for covering one of his songs in a racially- segregated era, a point that I even brought up that you oddly keep minimizing.


It is not about one being more reasonable, it is about facts. There are facts that support that African Americans pioneered rock n roll and whites imitated the sound and singing style of those artists. Most of the white artists during those eras covered songs that were written by black artists and musicians and just manufactured the sound for white audiences.


I don't think you are being objective at all. You don't want to credit African Americans for rock n roll because YOU think they did not pioneer it despite evidence and facts that support that they did.

I think whites helped in popularizing it and bringing notoriety to the real African American pioneers of the genres but they certainly did not innovate it.


Race has everything to do with this discussion because it is the reason why Fats, Little Richard and Chuck Berry do not get the proper respect they deserve in their genre unlike their white counterparts.

**** it, you can have the last word.

All I'll say is that I never compared black struggles in the "Jim Crow Era" to white struggles, and that I never failed to give credit to black artists on anything, I think they're just as influential as white artists on the creation of rock.

Many of those artist felt that "Rock and Roll" was a start from scratch with an all inclusive term that everyone owned and everyone had a part in creating it.

We have to put up with that everywhere.

The Beatles or cock sucking?

Well literally both, and together.

I don't think I could do both at the same time. Hearing McCartney's voice will only make me think of that gormless twat grinning and putting his thumbs up like he always does in every photo these days. It's enough to put anyone off their stroke. I'd be doing the poor girl a disservice making her think she wasn't very good at it.

I don't think Paul McCartney has gotten head for a long time, actually.

Bet he asked Heather Mills for loads. You'd be grateful for any 10 minutes of peace and quiet being married to that bitch.

You can't get that much out of a vegan.

rock n roll is kinda mix of black and white, though. Everybody took influences from everybody. But without blacks, it would be fast country and without whites jump blues...?

It's also a mix of brown and tan.

Yes, rock is definitely a mixed-race baby. Well, I guess it's more like a mixed-race dying old fart now.

John Lennon also said "If you tried to give Rock and Roll another name, you might call it 'Chuck Berry'." Other John Lennon fun facts: he is the first man to wear a fur coat, he once slain a fire-breathing dragon, he counted to infinity... twice even, and invented slice bread.

Elvis was more than just a "white man who was able to sing like a black one." He also sang country standards too - check out the non-R&B numbers like Just Because, Blue Moon and Blue Moon of Kentucky on his debut album. Beside R&B artist he was influence by the crooners that came before him and later in life he became a fan of opera and was always trying to improve his vocals. Either you are a Beatles fan or an Elvis fan. Most Beatle fans don't like Elvis, or even the Rolling Stones, either they don't like them or don't give them credit.

This. As I said, it's as much country influence (if not more, musically) as blues influence on early rock numbers. Everyone I've met who says "blacks pioneered rock" has absolutely zero knowledge of white music before the 1950s. I'm not just saying it because of the argument I just had here, this is a very common opinion it seems. Maybe there was a documentary about this issue or something.

Maybe we need a "Rock before rock" thread with stuff like this:

African Americans will always be snubbed of their full credit when it comes to music because the white people writing the history books are driven by that Willie lynch bullish. Black musicians always get the short end of the stick or none of it at all.

They always get HALF of what they actually created or none of it at all. They always have to "share" what they pioneered with white people and it is not fair. They never get FULL credit of what they pioneered but the industry will shove
The Beatles and Elvis down our throats in a heart beat.

If this was a discussion on country music the responses would be a lot different which is really sad and that is all I am going to say on this issue.

They didn't create ****.

Er... what?

What is the problem? If rock n roll is a mix of black and white? Without country music influence there would not be rock and without blues influence (and gospel and whatever) there would not be rock.

And when it comes to the topic of this thread, how can we decide who was the most important one? I dunno.

And John Lennon was a paradox to end all the other paradoxes and changed his opinions as usually as other people change their trousers so they shouldn't be taken very seriously.

I liked to hear your perspectives on the matter because originally you posted that African Americans created Rock n Roll and not Elvis. I liked to know why did you suddenly change your perspective to blacks and whites both creating the genre.

I didn't said so. I said "Elvis didn't invent anything". Think about it that way: Chuck Berry was a big country music fan, Buddy Holly's songs are clearly influenced by country, Everly Brothers nearly were friggin' country and so on. It is not so plain. That's what I'm saying.
Rock N Roll wasn't born in a one night.

It has nothing to do with inventing anything. Elvis brought Rock N' Roll into prominence and that's that.

That could be true, but that wasn't my point? Elvis may have been very important figure but it will not make me appreciate his music more. His early recordings are awesome, though.

That wasn't exactly a response to you, more towards the entire debate. Sorry for the mislead.

No prob,my bad.

That is what you said.... but I get your point. I still think blacks never get their full credit when it comes to certain things. I don't think rock n roll was born in one night either just believe black musicians were the original pioneers.

Pretty much. Like I said, there was no invention, he certainly didn't, since he wasn't even a songwriter and wasn't exactly a great musician. He's the king because he's the most important figure. There's absolutely no way you can make the argument that Elvis wasn't the most prominent force in music at the time, and rock specifically. His sales records and chart performance speak for themselves.

As for the actual foundation of rock, I definitely think there were artists making music that is similar before Elvis, I've said that several times when discussing the issue, but they were both black AND white, and there are a lot of examples of each. I don't think you can really prove the argument that it was pioneered more by one ethnicity than another, but you certainly can prove that the foundation was there in both cultures before 1954.

If Johnny B. Goode isn't rock n' roll, I'm not sure what is. Sounds very similar to Rock Around the Clock, which everyone agrees is rock n' roll.

The one they call The King~Elvis Presley

I'd have to say Elvis. He put Rock and Roll on the map. He didn't event it per say but he sure did inspire young people everywhere to go to dance halls! My nana absolutely loves him. Her sister thinks he's alive and that he pretended to die so he could get out of the music business (he would have enough money to retire). I think that's rather far fetched. I would just let her think what she wants, if it makes her happy.

I'm a fan of Little Richard too. I need to listen to Chuck Berry, can someone name an album I should start with?

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/...s9378c076.jpeg
Chuck Berry - The Great Twenty-Eight (1982)

This one would probably be the best place to start. It's a greatest hits album with all the classic Chuck Berry songs from 1955 to 1965 on it.

Screamin Jay Hawkins is the true king of Rock n Roll.

Thanks Psy-Fi, I'll download that now. :)

I'd say Chuck Berry even though I'm only a VERY casual fan of 50's music in general. Truthfully, the history of that era and what happened then is more interesting to me than the majority of the actual music, in my opinion. Having said that, it should NEVER be ignored though. In short order, we probably wouldn't have had rock and roll as we know it without the contributions of Chuck. :bowdown:

Elvis all the way. I often imagine what would have happened if he didn't derail his music career by making all of those silly movies.

led zeppelin or buddy holly

Michael Monarch

Elvis. My opinion, its him above everybody else... and I love Chuck Berry, basically learned rock and roll guitar from him... and James Brown.

But Elvis is the King, in my world.

Chuck Berry