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Well, I see that point, and you're right, Rock N Roll needed a white man who was able to sing like a black one, but he still did not invent anything and he wasn't a songwriter, so when it comes to music he would not deserve that title, but I dunno. I just don't personally like him, but yes, like John Lennon said, without Elvis there would not have been the Beatles and without the Beatles...who knows/
Except Elvis did not invent anything. Blacks were doing it before.
This just isn't true. Post the earliest "rock" song you can find, and I promise you I can find one from the same time period that was made by the whities. Believe it or not, music with rhythm, guitar, bass, drums, stuff like that, did exist in the white community before Elvis, and arguably before black people had done it.
Except, Elvis and Bill Haley were doing it before Chuck and Richard. Nice try though.
You mean Elvis was stealing before them?
Although Jackie wasn't rock n roll, Jackie Wilson was doing the hip twisting and leg movements before Elvis. I think Elvis was also influenced by Jackie's singing style as well. Jackie doesn't get enough credit. They never what to give the black pioneers any credit
Elvis idolize Jackie Wilson.
Elvis imiated alot of his dance moves and twisting his hips ALL that came from Jackie. Elvis was not the FIRST to do rock n roll. Elvis would probably tell you that himself actually most of his idols were black musicians who pioneered rock n roll.
Fats Dominos anyone?
He just did manufactured imitations of it. Most of his hits were written by African American songwriters that he just covered and they became more popular because of who he was.
Last edited by Soulflower; 01-03-2014 at 03:15 PM.
Although Jackie wasn't rock n roll, Jackie Wilson was doing the hip twisting and leg movements before Elvis.
Elvis idolize Jackie Wilson.
Elvis imiated alot of his dance moves and twisting his hips ALL that came from Jackie. Elvis was not the FIRST to do rock n roll. Elvis would probably tell you that himself actually most of his idols were black musicians who pioneered rock n roll.
Fats Dominos anyone?
He just did manufactured imitations of it. Most of his hits were written by African American songwriters that he just covered and they became more popular because of who he was.
So the guys who you give credit before Elvis stole it after Elvis. Got it. Maybe you should just admit that you want black people to be the kings and queens of rock, when in reality it was a joint effort to create the genre, and Elvis is undeniably the biggest figure of the genre's early stages. So, he's the king.
So the guys who you give credit before Elvis stole it after Elvis. Got it. Maybe you should just admit that you want black people to be the kings and queens of rock, when in reality it was a joint effort to create the genre, and Elvis is undeniably the biggest figure of the genre's early stages. So, he's the king.
Deal with it sis.
Well I don't have to deal with anything because I don't drink the koolaid lol
What I want is for African Americans to get the respect and credit they deserve. Not saying that they don't at all but alot of these legendary African American musicians and artists that changed music NEVER get their rightful just due.
The question is not asking "who is the biggest figure in the rock n roll genre". The question is asking who is the original pioneer of rock n roll so the fact that Elvis is the face of the genre really does not necessarily conclude that he pioneered it.
Elvis came from a era where most African American musicians and artists were not given their fair share musically and if they weren't singing R&B/Pop they didn't have a chance of crossing over. Unfortunately, most African Americans who pioneered rock n roll were not given the same platform to cross over. White folks wanted it to be a white made genre which is why most of the white engineers, musicians and songwriters got most of their songs and ideas from African American musicians. They took it, gave it to popular white artists e.g. Elvis and just watered it down for white audiences.
Call it what you want but Rock in Roll originally was created by black musicians and artists. Most of the older white rock in roll bands and artists have SAID this themselves. They know that most of what they were doing was already being done underground by black people. Elvis has openly and publicly said he admired and copied a lot of these African American artists so I am not sure what point you are trying to make.
Well I don't have to deal with anything because I don't drink the koolaid lol
What I want is for African Americans to get the respect and credit they deserve. Not saying that they don't at all but alot of these legendary African American musicians and artists that changed music NEVER get their rightful just due.
So you do it by taking away from what white people have accomplished in music?
I don't get this, I always thought of every single one of the artists you mentioned as respected musicians, more respected for their musicianship than Elvis, considering all he really did was play a little rhythm guitar. He was a great singer, and a great performer. No one says that he's superior, but he was a major icon of the 1950s. Certainly the biggest in music at the time. I don't think he was the first person to create music that resembles rock, but his records from 1954 are often considered the first true rock n roll records. You're welcome to disagree with that, I'm welcome to disagree with you.
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The question is not asking "who is the biggest figure in the rock n roll genre". The question is asking who is the original pioneer of rock n roll so the fact that Elvis is the face of the genre really does not necessarily conclude that he pioneered it.
No it isn't, otherwise this thread would be titled "who was the true creator of rock n roll". A King isn't a "first", he's the most important. I never once called Elvis the pioneer of rock, but there's plenty of people who would. I don't necessarily disagree with that either, you could easily make the case that his Sun recordings were the first rock n roll recordings.
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Elvis came from a era where most African American musicians and artists were not given their fair share musically and if they weren't singing R&B/Pop they didn't have a chance of crossing over. Unfortunately, most African Americans who pioneered rock n roll were not given the same platform to cross over. White folks wanted it to be a white made genre which is why most of the white engineers, musicians and songwriters got most of their songs and ideas from African American musicians. They took it, gave it to popular white artists e.g. Elvis and just watered it down for white audiences.
I disagree. If anything, african americans were just as impactful on the music industry at the time. Chuck Berry, Little Richard, The Drifters, Jackie Wilson among many, many others, were hugely successful. I just don't see the argument that black artists were given the shaft. Maybe they didn't make as much money or something, but the music industry is known for always having ripped off their performers, black or white.
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Call it what you want but Rock in Roll originally was created by black musicians and artists. Most of the older white rock in roll bands and artists have SAID this themselves. They know that most of what they were doing was already being done underground by black people. Elvis has openly and publicly said he admired and copied a lot of these African American artists so I am not sure what point you are trying to make.
No it wasn't, you can say it until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make it true. That's an opinion, I'm stating facts, 1954, Sun recordings where Elvis recorded with the band he would achieve all of his success with for the first time, that's a fact. It was recorded BEFORE Little Richard and Chuck Berry recorded their first albums, that's a fact.
Perhaps you don't think that's rock, perhaps you think something recorded earlier was rock. We can split hairs over it all day until we come to the conclusion that rock was really created in the 1930s if we wanted, but the popular opinion is that Elvis created the first rock records, and all that came before it was proto-rock. I can't prove that "Rocket 88" or "Rock The Joint" isn't a rock n roll record, I'd even say that it definitely resembles rock, but I've also heard music from the 1930s and 40s by white country and folk artists that resembles rock.
So you do it by taking away from what white people have accomplished in music?
I don't get this, I always thought of every single one of the artists you mentioned as respected musicians, more respected for their musicianship than Elvis, considering all he really did was play a little rhythm guitar.
Is it really that threatening to you that African Americans pioneered Rock n Roll instead of the beloved Elvis Presley? lol
How am I taking away from what whites have accomplished by saying that? I am just simply pointing out that rock n roll came from African American artists and musicians.
Facts or facts. If it had been Asians or Whites who had pioneered Rock n Roll I would argue the same thing for them.
The problem is white people get a ISH load of respect in the rock n roll genre. Examples, Beatles, Elvis, Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd etc. What about the African American artists that pioneered rock n roll though? The critics and industry will cite the Beatles and Elvis before they would cite Fats Dominos.
Yes, I have a problem with that because Fats, Chuck, and Richard are the ORIGINAL pioneers.
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
He was a great singer, and a great performer. No one says that he's superior, but he was a major icon of the 1950s. Certainly the biggest in music at the time. I don't think he was the first person to create music that resembles rock, but his records from 1954 are often considered the first true rock n roll records. You're welcome to disagree with that, I'm welcome to disagree with you.
I can respect your opinion now here is my opinion
I actually think Jackie Wilson and James Brown were better performers than Elvis. Elvis copied from Jackie Wilson. I much prefer the original versus someone who just imitated him. Elvis was a good singer but his music were songs that were already created by African Americans that he just covered. I prefer the original songs by the original creators than his water down covers.
In MY opinion, Elvis just did manufactured imitations of what African Americans had been doing since the beginning of time. He did not play an instrument very well or write any of his rock n roll music. He was just glorified for it because he was white and good looking which was all you needed during his era to become successful.
I don't get your point that the industry does not find him superior.The industry obviously thinks he is superior if they call him the king of rock n roll and insist he pioneered the genre when he technically did not.
I understand that he is a icon and everything but he just does nothing for me and I don't think he pioneered rock n roll. Popularized it, yes but he definitely did not create the genre and I don't think he was the best performer/singer of his era.
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
No it isn't, otherwise this thread would be titled "who was the true creator of rock n roll". A King isn't a "first", he's the most important. I never once called Elvis the pioneer of rock, but there's plenty of people who would. I don't necessarily disagree with that either, you could easily make the case that his Sun recordings were the first rock n roll recordings.
I would think the "king" title for any genre would be the artist that actually changed, pioneered and transcended the genre. By default, that is what makes the artist important to their genre. Despite the lack of credit they get compared to Elvis, Fats and Chuck Berry are VERY important to the genre. Elvis is with out a doubt the most successful in his genre but I don't think he is the MOST important out of his genre. If it wasn't for alot of black entertainers and artists it would not even be an Elvis.
How can you call someone "The King" of their genre if they copied other artists, imitated other artists and sung other artists music in their genre?
I don't get that reasoning.
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
I disagree. If anything, african americans were just as impactful on the music industry at the time. Chuck Berry, Little Richard, The Drifters, Jackie Wilson among many, many others, were hugely successful. I just don't see the argument that black artists were given the shaft. Maybe they didn't make as much money or something, but the music industry is known for always having ripped off their performers, black or white.
You honestly believe that African Americans were given the same equality rights and opportunities as whites during the civil rights and jim crow era?? Just because they were celebrity figures does not mean it was peaches and cream for these African American artists, as a matter of fact, it was hard hell for alot of those black artists during that period. They had to struggled to get their songs played on the radio, couldn't stay at certain hotels, wasn't allowed to perform at certain events, was called out their name/cursed at at their own concerts by whites and by their own record labels, etc... so this is bull ish
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
No it wasn't, you can say it until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make it true. That's an opinion, I'm stating facts, 1954, Sun recordings where Elvis recorded with the band he would achieve all of his success with for the first time, that's a fact. It was recorded BEFORE Little Richard and Chuck Berry recorded their first albums, that's a fact.
Fats Domino was making rock n roll before Elvis got signed.
Elvis and his camp already knew about Fats,Little Richard and Chuck Berry and the rock n roll music they were pioneering way before they got record deals. Elvis and his people were at the club and juke joints watching Little Richard and Chuck Berry (way before they were even signed) They took notice of this new cool innovative sound that they were making. They took it and manufactured it for Elvis Presly but they copied many other black artists as well. They took their songs and gave it to Elvis. Elvis was at Jackie Wilson's concerts studying his dance moves and singing style.
I notice you never mentioned Fats who was making rock n roll music way before Elvis was even heard of....
I give Elvis and his people credit they did their homework on the rock n roll genre. I also have to give credit to Elvis for acknowledging the black artists he copied and imitated.
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
Perhaps you don't think that's rock, perhaps you think something recorded earlier was rock. We can split hairs over it all day until we come to the conclusion that rock was really created in the 1930s if we wanted, but the popular opinion is that Elvis created the first rock records, and all that came before it was proto-rock. I can't prove that "Rocket 88" or "Rock The Joint" isn't a rock n roll record, I'd even say that it definitely resembles rock, but I've also heard music from the 1930s and 40s by white country and folk artists that resembles rock.
Just because the media wants to say Elvis made the first rock n roll records does not make it true. I've done my home work and I have concluded that it is not true based on the facts. That doesn't take anything away from Elvis but facts are facts and sometimes what the media presents to us are not necessarily facts or the truth. You want me to consider Elvis the King just because the media tells us he is and I simply disagree. Thanks for the videos.
I respect your perspectives but that is my opinion
Last edited by Soulflower; 01-03-2014 at 05:46 PM.
Is it really that threatening to you that African Americans pioneered Rock n Roll instead of the beloved Elvis Presley? lol
Absolutely not, that's why I said it was a joint effort, and never said that Elvis was a rock pioneer. I think there's a good argument for it.
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How am I taking away from what whites have accomplished by saying that? I am just simply pointing out that rock n roll came from African American artists and musicians.
And you're incorrect, as I've stated, and backed up. Either prove it or get off of it with your whiney tirades against white people in music stealing from black people. Like I said, say until you're blue in the face, that's an opinion.
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The problem is white people get a ISH load of respect in the rock n roll genre. Examples, Beatles, Elvis, Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd etc. What about the African American artists that pioneered rock n roll though? The critics and industry will cite the Beatles and Elvis before they would cite Fats Dominos.
And so do black people. Again with the subjective opinions. Come up with something FACTUAL. Come up with something OBJECTIVE.
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Yes, I have a problem with that because Fats, Chuck, and Richard are the ORIGINAL pioneers.
LOL
Back to square one, I see.
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I can respect your opinion now here is my opinion
I actually think Jackie Wilson and James Brown were better performers than Elvis. Elvis copied from Jackie Wilson. I much prefer the original versus someone who just imitated him. Elvis was a good singer but his music were songs that were already created by African Americans that he just covered. I prefer the original songs by the original creators than his water down covers.
In MY opinion, Elvis just did manufactured imitations of what African Americans had been doing since the beginning of time. He did not play an instrument very well or write any of his rock n roll music. He was just glorified for it because he was white and good looking which was all you needed during his era to become successful.
I don't get your point that the industry does not find him superior.The industry obviously thinks he is superior if they call him the king of rock n roll and insist he pioneered the genre when he technically did not.
I understand that he is a icon and everything but he just does nothing for me and I don't think he pioneered rock n roll. Popularized it, yes but he definitely did not create the genre and I don't think he was the best performer/singer of his era.
I would think the "king" title for any genre would be the artist that actually changed, pioneered and transcended the genre. By default, that is what makes the artist important to their genre. Despite the lack of credit they get compared to Elvis, Fats and Chuck Berry are VERY important to the genre. Elvis is with out a doubt the most successful in his genre but I don't think he is the MOST important out of his genre. If it wasn't for alot of black entertainers and artists it would not even be an Elvis.
How can you call someone "The King" of their genre if they copied other artists, imitated other artists and sung other artists music in their genre?
I don't get that reasoning.
The artists that you're saying are the "KANGS" also "stole" from other artists, white and black, who were doing it before they were. I can respect every single one of your opinions if you treat it like an opinion, and don't pass it off as a valid reasoning for why you think Elvis shouldn't be considered The King.
Elvis was a more impactful "player" on the music industry than anyone else, that includes other white people. The fact that you think that he wasn't as great a performer as others doesn't change the fact that he had a talented band and group of songwriters around him, and was involved in some of the most recognizable songs in rock n roll history. Whether you like it or not, he was more impactful on rock than Chuck Berry, Little Richard, you name it, Elvis was a bigger deal, and was making "rock" before the others you've mentioned so far.
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You honestly believe that African Americans were given the same equality rights and opportunities as whites during the civil rights and jim crow era?? Just because they were celebrity figures does not mean it was peaches and cream for these African American artists, as a matter of fact, it was hard hell for alot of those black artists during that period. They had to struggled to get their songs played on the radio, couldn't stay at certain hotels, wasn't allowed to perform at certain events, was called out their name/cursed at at their own concerts by whites and by their own record labels, etc... so this is bull ish
IT doesn't mean it was peaches and cream for white artists either. What's your point? Every person who's in the music industry had to struggle to get to where they are, unless they had parents directly involved, they had to go through the same process to get noticed. White, black, hispanic, doesn't matter what the skin color is, you're undermining the very accomplishment of becoming a household name as an entertainment icon.
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Fats Domino was making rock n roll before Elvis got signed.
Elvis and his camp already knew about Fats,Little Richard and Chuck Berry and the rock n roll music they were pioneering way before they got record deals. Elvis and his people were at the club and juke joints watching Little Richard and Chuck Berry (way before they were even signed) They took notice of this new cool innovative sound that they were making. They took it and manufactured it for Elvis Presly but they copied many other black artists as well. They took their songs and gave it to Elvis. Elvis was at Jackie Wilson's concerts studying his dance moves and singing style.
Post some examples of songs, years, etc. I'm not going to look this crap up for you.
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I give Elvis and his people credit they did their homework on the rock n roll genre. I also have to give credit to Elvis for acknowledging the black artists he copied and imitated.
There was no rock n roll before Elvis, it didn't exist. It was rhythm and blues, country and western, jazz, folk, etc.
You find me a good example of rock, and I'm sure there is plenty of good music that resembles rock before 1954, and I'll give that to you. It doesn't change anything though. White people have been making music that sounds like rock for as long as black people. And if we're going off of what is actually considered rock, well, Elvis was the first one in 1954.
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Just because the media wants to say Elvis made the first rock n roll records does not make it true. I've done my home work and I have concluded that it is not true based on the facts. That doesn't take anything away from Elvis but facts are facts and sometimes what the media presents to us are not necessarily facts or the truth. You want me to consider Elvis the King just because the media tells us he is and I simply disagree. Thanks for the videos.
I respect your perspectives but that is my opinion
It has nothing to do with the media.
It has everything to do with facts, dates, and a tiny bit to do with perception being the reality, since we can't factually say whether or not anything is rock.
From my objective point of view, I see music history for what it is. Black people and white people have been making great music that shaped rock n roll for many, many years. It didn't just happen one day when some black guy walked into a studio and recorded rock like you want it to be. My point of view is basically "black and white music had equal influence on rock", yours is basically "black people invented rock, and white people copied them".
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