Originally Posted by The Batlord

In the Rwandan genocide the government handed out machetes to the Hutu populace and expected them to contribute, and they did, without resistance or complaint. That's one reason why the death toll was so quick so soon, because there was no escape for the Tutsis with the enemy being next door. The massacre wasn't carried out just by death squads, but by people just like you and me who'd been conditioned to hate, which is something that humanity as a whole is very easily conditioned to do. The human race is tribalistic by nature, and it doesn't really take much to bring it out. Basically just not having a comfortable lifestyle is enough to make people take their frustrations out on an outsider group, so long as it's easy, because they have different color skin, or a different religion, or simply a history of being seen as different. Just look at America with Trump and Hispanics, or Europe with Muslims. Just how different would it be if Europe wasn't such a comfortable, 1st world place to live in? How accepting do you think your country would be? How many would die?

How much did it take the Germans to take their frustrations out on the Jews? How much did it take to let the Jews be the scapegoats? How much did it take for the majority of Germans to turn their heads away from what they knew was happening and go about their lives as if nothing was happening because it was simply easier than doing something about it? That's the real issue. Not that some Germans killed a bunch of Jews, but that the majority of Germans didn't care enough to do anything about it. People simply don't care enough to try to stop genocide if it's too hard. Or if it's hard at all. Or simply if the people in charge say "do it" when they can make a case for it that jibes with some narrative that seems plausibe. That's honestly all that's needed to change civilization to barbarism, because ultimately the difference is imaginary.

And no country is different. Under the right conditions, nearly every single human on Earth could be so callous and indifferent. We might sing to our children and sing Christmas carols and give to charity, but nearly all of those same people could look the other way in the face of state sanctioned murder because it's simply difficult to do otherwise. There's a quote from a Holocaust survivor that I think sums up the human race pretty well, "This world is not this world." The human race and its civilization is simply a front to pretend that we are not simply animals capable of monstrosity at the drop of a hat the same as any animal.

Still happy?

Originally Posted by MicShazam

I basically agree with you, except I don't want to diminish the value of the human will towards something better.

A about a week ago, I attended a public meeting where candidates for the upcoming city council election presentes their political platform. I a room of 95% white, christian or atheist "natives" like me, there was overwhelmingly one sided "booing" whenever a particular candidate sent on about how muslims were the root of all evil. It's not that I don't see problems with radical Islam, but it was heartwarming to see such overwhelming resistance against attempts to stir animosity against a group of immigrants in our country.

On the other hand, I know that there's some of that darkness in all of us. I ****ing hate that Spielberg movie, Schindler's List - but I hate it exactly because it makes the villains seem so different from us. It gives us this easy boogeyman, which is this cartoonishly evil Nazi stereotype, when in reality, there's depressingly little difference between most of the soldiers who served at the side of Nazi Germany and of us 'regular' movie watching pundits. Despite all this, I think there's reason to insist on the good sides of human beings. To at least aspire to be one of the good guys, even if you might ultimately fail to be so...
Also, in case you haven't, the graphic novel Maus is absolutely required reading for anyone who appreciates that medium - and really anyone who dares to look deep inside the human spirit in a way that's not as black & white as Schindler's List.

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.

Originally Posted by The Batlord

I mean I totally agree with that, that humanity can very much work together and not be tribalistic. But what happens when you're not living in a post-scarcity, Western society? What happens when the human race REALLY meats the balls to the wall? Do you think we DON'T become so tribalistic?

And even that isn't so awful when you consider how far we've come. Thousands of years past the time when tribalism was the law of the land everywhere every day all day 365 days a year, we really have come a distance that you'd have to actively ignore to pretend hasn't happened. But the question is just how much is that progress worth in 2017? It's probably worth more than it was a thousand years ago. And worth more than that two thousand years ago. But how much is it actually worth right the **** now? With genocide still a very going concern? Just how unmurderous is the human race?

Do we have the amount of cooperation necessary to deal with very ****ing immediate concerns like global warming? Even people from the same country can't agree that manmade global warming is even a thing, and I doubt that people from different countries across the globe can, or what is to be done about it, or that even anything should be done about it.

And even if we can, nuclear war has kind of become a joke after the Soviet Union collapsed, but... we all still have ****ing nuclear weapons and all still talk **** to each other at the drop of a hat. At some point someone is going to say one thing to far or someone is going to be just a tad too crazy, and then... what?


And all of this is in the most general sense. Hutus killed Tutsis for... what? Turks killed Armenians for... what? Whites enslaved blacks for... what? Just how much suffering is the human race capable of inflicting upon each other? I'd ask if you could quantify it but clearly you can't. We could say that the human race is advancing, and we are, but what happens if modern society takes a nose dive and we return to barbarism? Does all of our progress come with us? Or does it all die with our society, and barbarism truly return with all of the death and genocide that it will inevitably bring? Is all of this pretty progress just a comfortable illusion to believe in because we have the money to keep it going?

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Under the right conditions, nearly every single human on Earth could be so callous and indifferent.

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

Under the right conditions?

Got any qualifiers?

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Germany had a population of 63 million in 1933. Do you think America is genetically superior to Germany?

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

Be specific.

Comment point by point.

- 2017 free (albeit, highly partisan - but all sides represented) news vs. 1933 state run news extolling only one view - and we'll kill you if you disagree
- 1933 German demographics vs. 2017 US demographics
- 2017 a finger tap away information technology - 24/7 vs. 1933......
- 2017 first world civilized and governed nations vs. 3rd world tribal nations ruled by dictators and 100% military authority

Is 2017 US ****ed up? YES. Are we almost a century removed from the barbaric ideology that fueled a xenophobic national movement in Germany? **** YES.

Please point out the arrogance.

Originally Posted by mord

Actually, I like you a lot, Nea. That's why I treat you like ****. It's the MB way.