Rock Album Survivor

The Batlord · 01-30-2016, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechnicLePanther

But that pretty much describes any genre. "...characteristics that a lot of them share, but can't describe the whole of [them]."

So, therefore Post-Punk is a genre. Great, we've really gone places here.

Except that post-punk is specifically "designed" to not sound like a genre. All the bands absolutely did not want to sound like each other. You're just quote mining to to twist the argument in your favor. I just looked at your art punk list, and the ones bolded are all explicitly post-punk, and I'm sure many of the others could be argued to be post-punk as well, like Television and Pere Ubu.

Art Punk

1. Television - Marquee Moon
2. Wire - Pink Flag
3. Pere Ubu - The Modern Dance
4. The Fall - Hex Enduction Hour
5. Cardiacs - On Land and in the Sea
6. Public Image Ltd. - First Issue
7. Flipper - Gone Fishin
8. Brainiac - Hissing Prigs in Static Couture
9. Patti Smith Group - Wave
10. MX-80 Sound - Out of the Tunnel

This list is unnecessary.

Tristan_Geoff · 01-30-2016, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Except that post-punk is specifically "designed" to not sound like a genre. All the bands absolutely did not want to sound like each other. You're just quote mining to to twist the argument in your favor. I just looked at your art punk list, and the ones bolded are all explicitly post-punk, and I'm sure many of the others could be argued to be post-punk as well, like Television and Pere Ubu.

Art Punk

1. Television - Marquee Moon
2. Wire - Pink Flag
3. Pere Ubu - The Modern Dance
4. The Fall - Hex Enduction Hour
5. Cardiacs - On Land and in the Sea
6. Public Image Ltd. - First Issue
7. Flipper - Gone Fishin
8. Brainiac - Hissing Prigs in Static Couture
9. Patti Smith Group - Wave
10. MX-80 Sound - Out of the Tunnel

This list is unnecessary.

Actually, at one point or another I've seen ll of these labeled as post-punk. Post-punk=art punk.

But then again, there's stuff like Parquet Court's Monastic Living, No Age's Weirdo Rippers, and Whatever Brains' __LP (2012) that can't really be labeled as post-punk but art punk/experimetal punk works well enough. I say if you really want to see one that doesn't fit on the post-punk list put it in wild card.

Tristan_Geoff · 01-30-2016, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechnicLePanther

But that pretty much describes any genre. "...characteristics that a lot of them share, but can't describe the whole of [them]."

So, therefore Post-Punk is a genre. Great, we've really gone places here.

Never said it wasn't a genre. It's definitely a genre. Just not a totally well-shaped one. Same with post-hardcore and post-rock to an extent. In it's simplest form, post just denotes the influence of the genre preceding it. NoFX are post-hardcore, meaning hardcore influenced. Of course, this is also incorrect genre speaking, as they don't experimet enough with the hardcore sound to be classified as such. But more timeline speaking, this is true.

JGuy Grungeman · 01-30-2016, 10:38 AM

Except that there are people who get the same vibe off of the scene from nearly every album they hear in the scene. You'd go ballistic if I said every black metal album sounds the same. Just by the sound, I can tell the difference between post-punk, and gothic rock, and ethereal wave, and darkwave. I don't even need to know what kind of post-punk the band speciallizes in. Also, if post-punk doesn't have a sound, why are ethereal wave, darkwave, and gothic rock alternative versions of post-punk that take elements from the sound?

The Batlord · 01-30-2016, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGuy Grungeman

Except that there are people who get the same vibe off of the scene from nearly every album they hear in the scene. You'd go ballistic if I said every black metal album sounds the same. Just by the sound, I can tell the difference between post-punk, and gothic rock, and ethereal wave, and darkwave. I don't even need to know what kind of post-punk the band speciallizes in. Also, if post-punk doesn't have a sound, why are ethereal wave, darkwave, and gothic rock alternative versions of post-punk that take elements from the sound?

Those are offshoots of sounds that evolved from a movement of unconnected bands. Black metal in the modern (Norwegian) sense came from a small, tightly-knit group of bands who were very much influenced by each other, and who had very similar opinions as to what was acceptable to listen to (Venom, Celtic Frost, Bathory, etc) and what was not (death metal, thrash, and any other metal which they saw as no longer relevant).

There are also very restrictive rules as to what a band must sound like to be considered "true" black metal. The original bands may have veered off into different musical directions, but in the beginning there was most definitely a core sound which they all shared that was distinct.

Though many post-punk bands came from the London punk scene, they were not the collective that the Norwegian black metal scene was, and actively avoided developing any shared sound that you could point to from ten miles away and call post-punk. Unless you're you, I guess.

**Frownland** · 01-30-2016, 10:41 AM

Pretty sure you're missing the whole concept of the genre that Bat referred to.

JGuy Grungeman · 01-30-2016, 12:04 PM

But they ended up sounding similar in this new subgenre of punk, and many subgenres of punk or at least styles that drew from punk were becoming popular. Post-punk's experimentation is what makes it post-punk, since they still all share a similar sound that all comes from the same source material. The originals might have all been different, but they mostly share the same emotional context and sleeker, more ambiance heavy production qualities. Post-punk is very experimental, yes. But without knowing it, many of the originals had some similar ideas on the aspects of the experimentation. In fact, the originals influenced many of the future post-punk bands. And early on, many of the same ideas were used in gothic rock, darkwave, and ethereal wave, all being substyles of each other. I mean, punk has a lot of restrictions, so how many restrictions can one break before the punk sound is mostly gone? Well, post-punk featured a lot of emotional and production heavy content, which is where gothic rock formed, like The Cure and Cocteau Twins, the latter of which implemented gothic rock with dream pop to create something different. What set some of these bands apart was that they put the post-punk sound with other genres later in their careers.

And what a band goes for isn't necessarily what's going to succeed. The truth is they were all influenced by one source: punk. They were trying to capitalize off of punk's newfound fame. And since punk was heavily restricted, they can't experiment too far with it. Not until it became known, anyway. A lot of bands, not just post-punk bands, were trying to change things. I doubt 8 different bands got together and said "Let's make death metal." These bands didn't know much about the other new bands, so they had to try and make something new. These bands ended up in art punk, hardcore, and post-punk, and many other kinds of punk.

Since they are so different, trying to say "post-punk" isn't a genre" isn't fair. It's like you said: unconnected bands were trying something different, and that may be how a genre starts. Not every time, but sometimes. So many bands were trying to make something different so quickly to capitalize off of punk, so that's why we have so many kinds of punk it's not even funny.

**Frownland** · 01-30-2016, 12:32 PM

So because post rock led to the development of other genres, it's a cohesive and singular type of genre. Interesting perspective there, mate.

JGuy Grungeman · 01-30-2016, 12:40 PM

Well, post-punk does have little distinctions to it. Bat's argument could more easily apply to art punk, since art punk is very experimental. Yet, we can still tell an art punk album from a post-punk album and that from a hardcore album.

Most forms of punk are more restircted, but the point of some of them are to experiment. And if one experimental genre is different from the other, than they are separate genres or movements.

JGuy Grungeman · 01-30-2016, 12:58 PM

I was going down RYM's list of art punk, and it was hard to find recognizable bands on RYM that weren't notable for both. Was I the one who submitted the original post-punk lsit? I don't think so...

But don't think I can't distinguish the two. It's not my fault everyone's voting specific albums to be both post-punk and art punk. The majority of art punk's popularity is from the 70's and early 80's, and although there are a lot of 90's art punk albums, post-punk bands were making more very famous post-punk albums even into the 90's. Siouxsie, The Cure, Nick Cave, and Echo are good examples. Plus, post-punk is much larger than art punk.

The art punk I've heard is less production-based, and is really more like a "stripped-down" version of punk. Post-punk isn't "stripped-down." It's more rule-breaking.

01-30-2016, 10:38 AM	#4 (permalink)
JGuy Grungeman Primo Celebate Sexiness Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,662	Except that there are people who get the same vibe off of the scene from nearly every album they hear in the scene. You'd go ballistic if I said every black metal album sounds the same. Just by the sound, I can tell the difference between post-punk, and gothic rock, and ethereal wave, and darkwave. I don't even need to know what kind of post-punk the band speciallizes in. Also, if post-punk doesn't have a sound, why are ethereal wave, darkwave, and gothic rock alternative versions of post-punk that take elements from the sound? __________________ I'm a pretty nice troll if you ask me.

01-30-2016, 10:41 AM	#6 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	Pretty sure you're missing the whole concept of the genre that Bat referred to. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

01-30-2016, 12:04 PM	#7 (permalink)
JGuy Grungeman Primo Celebate Sexiness Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,662	But they ended up sounding similar in this new subgenre of punk, and many subgenres of punk or at least styles that drew from punk were becoming popular. Post-punk's experimentation is what makes it post-punk, since they still all share a similar sound that all comes from the same source material. The originals might have all been different, but they mostly share the same emotional context and sleeker, more ambiance heavy production qualities. Post-punk is very experimental, yes. But without knowing it, many of the originals had some similar ideas on the aspects of the experimentation. In fact, the originals influenced many of the future post-punk bands. And early on, many of the same ideas were used in gothic rock, darkwave, and ethereal wave, all being substyles of each other. I mean, punk has a lot of restrictions, so how many restrictions can one break before the punk sound is mostly gone? Well, post-punk featured a lot of emotional and production heavy content, which is where gothic rock formed, like The Cure and Cocteau Twins, the latter of which implemented gothic rock with dream pop to create something different. What set some of these bands apart was that they put the post-punk sound with other genres later in their careers. And what a band goes for isn't necessarily what's going to succeed. The truth is they were all influenced by one source: punk. They were trying to capitalize off of punk's newfound fame. And since punk was heavily restricted, they can't experiment too far with it. Not until it became known, anyway. A lot of bands, not just post-punk bands, were trying to change things. I doubt 8 different bands got together and said "Let's make death metal." These bands didn't know much about the other new bands, so they had to try and make something new. These bands ended up in art punk, hardcore, and post-punk, and many other kinds of punk. Since they are so different, trying to say "post-punk" isn't a genre" isn't fair. It's like you said: unconnected bands were trying something different, and that may be how a genre starts. Not every time, but sometimes. So many bands were trying to make something different so quickly to capitalize off of punk, so that's why we have so many kinds of punk it's not even funny. __________________ I'm a pretty nice troll if you ask me. Last edited by JGuy Grungeman; 01-30-2016 at 12:13 PM.

01-30-2016, 12:32 PM	#8 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	So because post rock led to the development of other genres, it's a cohesive and singular type of genre. Interesting perspective there, mate. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

01-30-2016, 12:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
JGuy Grungeman Primo Celebate Sexiness Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,662	Well, post-punk does have little distinctions to it. Bat's argument could more easily apply to art punk, since art punk is very experimental. Yet, we can still tell an art punk album from a post-punk album and that from a hardcore album. Most forms of punk are more restircted, but the point of some of them are to experiment. And if one experimental genre is different from the other, than they are separate genres or movements. __________________ I'm a pretty nice troll if you ask me.

01-30-2016, 12:58 PM	#10 (permalink)
JGuy Grungeman Primo Celebate Sexiness Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,662	I was going down RYM's list of art punk, and it was hard to find recognizable bands on RYM that weren't notable for both. Was I the one who submitted the original post-punk lsit? I don't think so... But don't think I can't distinguish the two. It's not my fault everyone's voting specific albums to be both post-punk and art punk. The majority of art punk's popularity is from the 70's and early 80's, and although there are a lot of 90's art punk albums, post-punk bands were making more very famous post-punk albums even into the 90's. Siouxsie, The Cure, Nick Cave, and Echo are good examples. Plus, post-punk is much larger than art punk. The art punk I've heard is less production-based, and is really more like a "stripped-down" version of punk. Post-punk isn't "stripped-down." It's more rule-breaking. __________________ I'm a pretty nice troll if you ask me. Last edited by JGuy Grungeman; 01-30-2016 at 01:04 PM.