Wpnfire

This is for both of you. One of the most notable characteristics of heavy metal is that it is dissonant, and if not dissonant, harsh and aggressive then. The fact that you both like the black album specifically for the harmony is one of the reasons I consider the black album to be barely a heavy metal album. The black album uses overdrive guitars, but nothing else about it is what I consider to be heavy metal.
The black album trades in the harsh, dissonant aspects of heavy metal for a more melodic, slower, lyrical-oriented sound (there's no instrumentals which ALL of their previous albums had) with an emphasis on the chorus in particular. The difference is just shocking.

The fact that the black album is considered to be from the same genre as Iron Man by Black Sabbath just baffles me. They sound so entirely different (outside of the songs like Sad But True and the Unforgiven, which are the closest representatives of the heavy metal sound from Metallica's previous albums).

The black album isn't even a good representation of Metallica's earlier material. Xurito even said she doesn't like their earlier material outside of a few songs. It's an entirely different album that I just wish never came into existence. Michael Jackson's Beat It, is more representative of the heavy metal genre than 90% of the songs from the black album, and I'm being 100% serious with that statement.

I agree that Metallica may be the most melodic thrash band, though Megadeth is really close in that department. Mustiane is really a genius songwriter (less than he thinks about himself, but still great) and his work gets lost in the extreme speed of many of Megadeths' songs. The melody is there, it's just surrounded by intense, aggressive guitar playing.

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The Batlord

What? Never heard of Anthrax? Death Angel? Suicidal Tendencies?

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TheBig3

Unfortunately, I have.

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This is for one of you

I realize that it isn't that heavy. The only really heavy song is the one you've mentioned. Detracting the other one you mention, though.


I don't consider the Black Album to be anything like Black Sabbath. Most of the songs that Sabbath put out were very doom laden. There isn't really many of them on the Black Album, but that doesn't detract the way I feel about it. To tell you the truth, Holier Than Thou was pretty good with it's against-bible lyrics. Of Wolf and Man was a dark song, about werewolves, I believe. Wherever I May Roam is pretty dark. None of them are very heavy, no, but the lyrics have similarities to something Black Sabbath might have put out.

But when you are speaking about Sabbath, I mainly see then as classic rock instead of metal. There is no real fastness to much of their songs. A lot the same with the ...And Justice album; compare that one to the first...


I've been meaning to ask, forgot in another post, but where does this "Unforgiven is the next best heavy song on the album" come from? Not one second of that song is heavy. My fave off the album, being Don't Tread On Me is much heavier that anything from the Unforgiven. I listened to it just in case I was wrong, but I wasn't. What is so heavy about that song...?



No, it isn't. But I think that there are some heavy elements in it other than Sad But True, detracting the Unforgiven. We just have differing opinions. Not truly that different, because I did agree with you that it was nothing like those that came before it. But that doesn't take away the musicianship for me. No, not at all.


So? I love the Black Album but it isn't my favorite. My faves are, in this order:

Kill 'Em All
Ride the Lightning
...And Justice
Master of Puppets
Metallica

I do happen to love the rawness of the first album, and I love the rawness of other thrash metal bands. I consider that one my favorite album of all time. Of any genre of music. But that doesn't mean that I cannot like melody from later material. I agree, the Black Album isn't very heavy. Though every album after Kill 'Em All gets less heavy each time I listen to them. Master of Puppets is a great album, but it doesn't have the feel of Kill 'Em All. In ...And Justice? You can hear the sounds of the next album coming through. I don't consider ...And Justice a true thrash metal album. And that didn't distract me from the music. It had none of the signature bass, which I think did it right; I've heard the songs with the bass vamped up in some Youtube vids and it just didn't sound right. Maybe because it's Newsted instead of Burton...?




I can hear Napoleon Dynamite saying "Oh, get over it. Gawd!" I hated that movie, by the way.

I'm awfully glad that it did come into existence, because I have many different musical tastes and, unless it's incompatible with my tastes, I might like it. And I loved it.


Okay. No comment for me here; it'd turn into a flame war and I am not about to start one of those. So forgive me if I just shake my head.


Yep, no one turns a screw better than Mustaine, bleep yeah.

I read the lyrics to Rust in Peace and a lot of the stories in it are only half baked ideas. I'm not a big fan of that one. I did, however, enjoy Countdown to Extinction. But I think I need to go back and listen to their albums again.



So far, I agree with the Black Album being the least heavy of the first five. But I don't turn away if they put out different material, just as long as I enjoy it. Too bad for all of you whom do not like it. But, as Dynamite may have said, "Get over it, Gawd!"

Wpnfire

If you don't call Black Sabbath the first heavy metal band, who do you call the first heavy metal band?


I believe I said it earlier, the solo is what makes it heavy for me. I see what you are getting at here, and it reminds me of "Killer of Giants" by Ozzy Osbourne, which of course, everyone agrees is heavy metal. That's what I use to base that.


Again, it boggles my mind what people see in Ride The Lightning, and why any sane person would pick it over Kill Em All or Master of Puppets. Every song on RTL sounds the same to me other than "Call of Ktulu," "Fade To Black," and "Fight Fire With Fire."
While I think all of Metallica's albums are considerably more varied than a ton of other bands, I consider Master to be their most varied, and RTL the second least of their first four albums with And Justice being the least varied.

I can't fathom why you would think that when Master has "Master of Puppets," AND "The Thing That Should Not Be." I guess it's slower, but I don't see the difference in heavy.




That's just wrong. Look me saying that the black album is 'barely a heavy metal album' is way way different than you saying that '..And Justice is not a true thrash metal album.' ..And Justice is objectively a thrash metal album. I was reading a review for it a few weeks ago that called it or something like that. I don't agree with that sentence at ALL. That's not stating an opinion, that's just wrong.
You can speculate that maybe Pluto is a planet, but you can NOT say that maybe Saturn is a planet. The black album is maybe a heavy metal album, but ..And Justice is 100% a thrash metal album.

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Now, I may have said that there's no fastness to the songs, which is what some consider heavy metal. I was just putting out a point. I do, indeed, feel that they are the first metal band. But they are also a classic rock band more so to me...


This is one of the points I was trying to make; just because you cannot hear the metal in the song, which every song, except Nothing Else Matters, is as strongly metal than anything in the Unforgiven.




Everything boggles someone's mind. Yours moreso than most


Did you stop thinking and just listen to the albums, or think about their structures and their differences? Taking any song from Kill 'Em All and compare them to the rest, there is just something rawer and a lot edgier, plus a lot faster in feel than the rest. No, not by miles and miles, but by feet or yards, meters, too, if you like.


So says the person whom didn't like the Black Album. Hey, it's a double edged sword here, a double edged demon sword.


Like I've said, and you've said about other albums past that one. The Black Album was metal. Even if you don't see it, it is. So was Black Sabbath. Not that you don't see that. But ...And Justice just doesn't have the fast pace that thrash contains. Listening to the first three and compare them to ...And Justice, it's night and day, really. Sure, there's still metal in there, everywhere, but the elements of thrash were waning. Not to say that it isn't thrash. I just kind of look at it as a less thrashy album. Heck, didn't I say I liked it over "Master" did I? But I consider Master as thrash, and that is because it is speedier. With every album they slowed down just a bit. To me, that is. I think it's thrash, but not true to the earlier ones.


Oh really? They said 'something like that' eh? Look, that's the same as saying that I read a review the other week where someone called the Black Album an awesome heavy metal album that will go down in history as the very best. It's all subjective. One second you could be thinking 'Gee, that's heavy metal' and it was a Kiss song, which I don't recall being heavy metal. Or saying, 'This is the heaviest band ever!' and it being Slipknot. Or thinking that Godzilla 2014 wasn't a real Godzilla movie, nor was '98. But some people don't agree.


You know what? You don't have to; we don't live under a dictatorship, so go on and not agree. It won't put me in a coma, or anything.

And that's what? Just your opinion, man.

Have you ever just wanted to tell someone to shut up? Well, have you? Then just be real and tell me to... I just did to you with this whole post.

Or something like that...

Wpnfire

Who are you????????????? Seriously, it is like you are my doppelgänger or something.

Let's just look at everything you and I have said lol. It's quite interesting.

The black album as a heavy metal album: You think it is heavy metal, I think it is not.
While we clearly have dissenting opinons on this, we BOTH agree Enter Sandman is a really really really overplaid song.
Also, we seem to be in (slight) agreement that there are better applications of the word heavy than using it to describe the black album for the most part.
Also also, we (somehow) agree Sad But True is the heaviest song from that album, though we, bizarrely, have differing definitions and therefore applications of the word heavy.

Favorite Metallica albums: We both agree Kill Em All is the best, but really deviate after that.
I think Master is the 2nd best (possibly I think it is tied for the best with Kill Em All), you think Ride the Lightning is the 2nd best, and then even place And Justice above MoP...................you ****er. lol
On the subject of kill Em All, we agree it is their edgiest material as well.

And Justice being a thrash metal album: We have differing views about this..............I still refuse to yield that And Justice is in fact a thrash metal album, so I guess I will admit that the black album is 'mainstream heavy metal.'

Load: I think this album is a POS, you think it is one of your favorite metallica albums.
That being said, I love love love leove lvoelvo vleov lovoelve...."Ain't My Bitch"

We both seem to like Megadeth as well.

Black Sabbath is unquestionably a heavy metal band. I saw someone on another site refer to Black Sabbath as "death metal." I don't agree with calling Black Sabbath anything other than heavy metal, or first wave-*insert heavy metal genre here*.

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Isbjørn

Referring to this.

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A doppelganger to whom? Myself?


I have argued to the contrary about this often times. But I think it is heavy enough to be considered as such. If Sabbath can be placed in the genre, I don't see why this album cannot.

As can be said about other metal bands, too, don't you agree?


You try playing every song on that album, neglecting Nothing Else Matters, Unforgiven and Enter Sandman, and I think you'll find some very good songs that have that exact element of heavy as Sad But True. I don't believe that you are even sitting down to actually listen to them as I have been ever since this whole debate began. Listen to the album, skipping the obvious choices, and I think you might come away with a few more heavy sounding songs.

You shoulda said, "You motherbleeper, you." I think that would have been much funnier. I think Joe Pesei said that in Goodfellas, or something.

I don't know. Maybe I am wrong. I think I just like ...And Justice a bit better because there are so many songs on there, like the Black Album, but unlike Master of Puppets... I love every song on their first five albums. I still love Enter Sandman, but I don't listen to that one as much anymore. Doesn't mean I hate it.



Well, der.

Maybe I was a little off about this one. But if you listen to each album, they get less thrashy than the last, and thus I think that you can see where the Black Album was going to lead to. ...And Justice is far heavier than the Black Album. I think we can both agree on that.

What about Slayer being thrash? I used to think that that was death metal before I heard what death really sounded like. But I don't think that Slayer is really thrash; it's closer to black metal...



Exactly. Just because it is mainstream, that doesn't mean it ain't metal.

Oh, by the way, I just gave you the clap!


Did I say that? If I did, scratch that. It's not one of my favorites. You know what my favorite are. It's just a really good hard rock album. Hard Rock, you know?


Yes, I think I recall.



I do have a few of their albums, but never really got into them as much as Metallica. I want to give them more listens, though.

Then so is the Black Album, for reasons I've gone over.

Uhem, what?



It's like viewing Deep Purple and Blue Oyster Cult as metal. I enjoy them a whole heck of a lot. But I've never considered them as metal. I see them as a progression to the genre, but they are just classic rock to me. Heck, those songs in the 50s I consider as pathing stones to metal.