Why such controversy on Nu Metal?

Forward To Death · 01-12-2014, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambival

the same can be said about Slayer copying early Metallica, Ozzy Osbourne copying John lennon's image (glasses) and style in some songs (No more tears), Future Doom metal bands copying the sound of "Black Sabbath" song etc. That's the way the whole art goes. Sepultura stole korn's sound, korn stole primus's sound, primus stole (or rather mixed) Pink Floyd and Rush's sound. If what you do is a DIRECT (not modificated in any significant way) copy of something else, then (and only then) it's plagiarism. While Avenged Sevenfold's song "This Means War" may be considered a rip off of Metallica's "Sad But True", notably different riffs, melody and lyrics may affect such view. I still consider it as a typical "inspired" song.

What do you think the difference between plagiarism and influence is? To me, influence is in a nutshell, a similarity, or better yet a perceived similarity. It's very subjective, I could say Justin Bieber is influenced by Black Sabbath, hell I think Ke$ha cites them as one of her biggest influences. Plagiarism is something you can actually argue based on quantifiable facts.

Godsmack made a song called "Love, Hate, Sex, Pain", and contains the exact same melody as "Love, Hate, Love", while Alice In Chains themselves have released a song with the lyrics "sex and pain", that's a fact. Godsmack has a logo with a sun, like Alice In Chains, that's a fact. Godsmack is the name of an Alice In Chains song, that's a fact. Godsmack has an album titled Faceless that features a face emerging from a background, Alice In Chains has an album titled Facelift that features a face emerging from a background, these are all facts. I guess whether it's actually similar enough to be considered "plagiarism" is subjective, so it's really up to you whether you consider it that or not. I think by legal definition, at least the melody lifting and song lyrics could definitely be.

Sound is not a fact, I guess a 7-string guitar is a fact, but what does that have to do with plagiarism? Does anyone who plays a 7-string or downtuned guitar owe royalties to Korn?

Ambival · 01-12-2014, 06:41 PM

Not at all, apart from downtuned guitar, in examples I mentioned above there was groove and emotional lyrics. As you said, by legal definition only melody and lyrics could be a subject of plagiarism. Just compare Slayer's dittohead (second riff) to the main riff of Machine head's bulldozer. I think the best example of plagiarism is "Tier" by Rammstein.

Forward To Death · 01-12-2014, 07:05 PM

Yeah, there's plenty of plagiarism in music dude, the point was that Godsmack has made a career out of it.

Norg · 01-13-2014, 09:58 PM

in the song Helmet in a Bush KOrn uses a Sample of a tape recorder rewinding and a click sample

also on some drum parts they used a 808 electronic Pad

and this was just on there first record has they said dabbled with electronics

and in korns own words early on they were simply trying to Mix the groove and bass of " gangsta rap" with the Rock that they were doing .... yup

Primeval Scum · 01-17-2014, 07:54 PM

Korn's "Ball Tongue" rips of Morbid Angel. I still love that song and album though.

Nu metal is often scorned because it became very stale and derivative. Too many of the bands were doing the same exact thing and trying to take advantage of the trend. So it fell out of favor.

Plus "nu metal" is a misnomer, since it isn't actually a type of metal.

Necromancer · 01-21-2014, 01:08 PM

There are sometimes drastic separation between all the differet styles and sounds in this genre, it doesn't seem to make much sense at times.

Necro · 08-21-2014, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambival

As a big fan of Nu metal, I wanted to state some things. As said before, Nu metal mix variety of different sounds. Because of that people have problems with familiarizing with the genre and I think that is the source of all the hate (except for its popularity between 1995 and 2005). Some say industrial, grunge or hip hop elements are the main traits of the genre, but quite frankly they are not. Usually Nu bands referred to those genres have also another label attached to it, that is Industrial metal, Rap metal etc. The variety of sounds in nu metal (and thus variety of bands - Slipknot, Evanescence, Soulfly, Para roach, System of a down. You may think they are uncomparable, labeling them all "nu metal" sounds like an insult) comes from the flexibility of three main, unarguable elements:
- simplicity - The biggest problem for metal purist. Metal should be brutally technical, with mind blowing solos and complex structures,but at the same time we have Black Sabbath's Paranoid, Megadeth's symphony of destruction and Judas Priest's Breaking the law. In Nu metal simplicity referres to its classic structure and easy riffs, but there is no rule. If you want more complex sound then you can have it (Slipknot's Skin Ticket and Disasterpieces, Otep's Bloody Pigs and TRIC etc.)
- Emphasis on rhythm - has much in common with simplicity, as all the greatest riffs in nu metal are more rhythm than melody oriented (Slipknot's Duality and (SIC), Korn's ***et etc.)
- Groove - The most important and obvious element of Nu metal. ALL Nu metal bands have groove in their sounds (although some mix it with headbanging speed, like in case of Slipknot's debut). This made Nu metal a derivative form of Groove metal. Both are groovy, but Groove metal is more technical.

The basic inspirations for Nu metal are Groove, Funk and Hip hop, because of their Groove. DJ's presence and rapping arethere only to strengthen the Groove, but they don't make the Genre, same with Industrial, Grunge (this one is there only for it's simplicity and angst in lyrics), hardcore punk and some others. The perfect example for Nu metal is the album that created the genre - Korn's debut. Lack of DJ's work, rapping or industrial and music critics still consider it the most "pure" of nu metal albums.

Coming back to the variety of bands. There is a big misunderstaning about which bands are Nu metal. Quite frankly, in terms of Purity, there is only ONE Nu metal band in the world - KoRn. All the others are more or less Nu metal, mixing the genre with some other elements (Slipknot/Otep - thrash and Death metal, Limp Bizkit/LinkinPark - Rap metal, Dope/Static X/Spineshank - industrial, Coal Chamber/Evanescence - gothic metal, Staind/Godsmack - post-grunge, System of a down - some-crazy-**** for sure) or simply making a Nu metal debut and then moving on a completely new territory (Debuts of Disturbed, Chimaira, Kittie, Deftones's Adrenaline and Around the fur).

Thank you for your attention.

I know im being late on this thread, but this topic is interesting to me.
I should say i agree with you on the 2 traits of nu-metal, id just like to add that i also consider hardcore a major influence on nu-metal, heck id even consider nu-metal a remote subgenre of hardcore, since both are groove based but too simple/different to be called groove metal, so that leaves hardcore as the only heavy groove based genre that nu-metal can fit in. Cos admit it, its not rock, nor hard rock, nor hip hop, the guitars are too different, theres no blues/pentatonic bases tonality in songs and the vocal styles/screams are reminiscent of hardcore too.

Also, as a side note, i dont get how nu-metal being too simple is a problem for people, if anything it makes them sound hypocritical, cos those same people also happen to like ****in Beatles and if you hear a Beatles song with technical shredding and face-ripping riffs let me know.
And in general, this nu-metal-hate argument reveals a lot of hypocritical straw-man bull**** in that, the things those people criticise in nu-metal, i can find them in their favorite genres.
And nu-metal isnt my fav genre, neither in heavy music, nor in general, just sayin'.

Norg · 08-21-2014, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necro

I know im being late on this thread, but this topic is interesting to me.
I should say i agree with you on the 2 traits of nu-metal, id just like to add that i also consider hardcore a major influence on nu-metal, heck id even consider nu-metal a remote subgenre of hardcore, since both are groove based but too simple/different to be called groove metal, so that leaves hardcore as the only heavy groove based genre that nu-metal can fit in. Cos admit it, its not rock, nor hard rock, nor hip hop, the guitars are too different, theres no blues/pentatonic bases tonality in songs and the vocal styles/screams are reminiscent of hardcore too.

Also, as a side note, i dont get how nu-metal being too simple is a problem for people, if anything it makes them sound hypocritical, cos those same people also happen to like ****in Beatles and if you hear a Beatles song with technical shredding and face-ripping riffs let me know.
And in general, this nu-metal-hate argument reveals a lot of hypocritical straw-man bull**** in that, the things those people criticise in nu-metal, i can find them in their favorite genres.
And nu-metal isnt my fav genre, neither in heavy music, nor in general, just sayin'.

uhhh u know Hardcore came out in like 2003 a little bit after Nu metal .....

unless your talking about bands like

Cro mags
bad brains
GG allen
etc etc etc

that came out around uhh 1988-1993 and most of those bands were from the East coast NY area and flordia milleesss away from califorina and KORN

and besides korn members were big into the hole LA scene when they were teens givin the close proximnty to them

so Hardcore of the early 90's had no effect on nu metal

Dylstew · 08-21-2014, 02:15 PM

There's one Nu Metal band I really love.
Maximum the hormone. It's Alternative Metal/Nu Metal/ mixed with Funk Metal and modern Pop punk.They also made a few third wave ska songs. They have a male and female singer.
The Nu Metal/Alternative Metal part is like System of a Down on crack, The Funk Metal/Rap Metal part is like early Red Hot Chili Peppers on crack, and then there's also the pop/pop punk parts. Oh, and they're Japanese.
They're really silly and don't take themselves too seriously.

I love it, for the most part. I know them the way most western people know them: Death Note Opening 2.

other than that there's System of a down I like. They're more Alternative Metal than nu metal though, but I think it still counts.

Norg · 08-21-2014, 02:23 PM

real NU metal u cant classifiy cus real NU metal= Music its just music LOL

that's why people are butt hurt LOL

01-17-2014, 07:54 PM	#165 (permalink)
Primeval Scum Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 146	Korn's "Ball Tongue" rips of Morbid Angel. I still love that song and album though. Nu metal is often scorned because it became very stale and derivative. Too many of the bands were doing the same exact thing and trying to take advantage of the trend. So it fell out of favor. Plus "nu metal" is a misnomer, since it isn't actually a type of metal. __________________ Last.fm RateYourMusic Don't grieve for me, I'm not there. I am the gentle autumn rain. Hold up my lamp to light your way. Farewell to thee...

01-12-2014, 06:41 PM	#162 (permalink)
Ambival Groupie Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 6	Not at all, apart from downtuned guitar, in examples I mentioned above there was groove and emotional lyrics. As you said, by legal definition only melody and lyrics could be a subject of plagiarism. Just compare Slayer's dittohead (second riff) to the main riff of Machine head's bulldozer. I think the best example of plagiarism is "Tier" by Rammstein.

01-12-2014, 07:05 PM	#163 (permalink)
Forward To Death Trolier Than Thou Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 1,336	Yeah, there's plenty of plagiarism in music dude, the point was that Godsmack has made a career out of it.

01-13-2014, 09:58 PM	#164 (permalink)
Norg Music Addict Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,358	in the song Helmet in a Bush KOrn uses a Sample of a tape recorder rewinding and a click sample also on some drum parts they used a 808 electronic Pad and this was just on there first record has they said dabbled with electronics and in korns own words early on they were simply trying to Mix the groove and bass of " gangsta rap" with the Rock that they were doing .... yup

01-21-2014, 01:08 PM	#166 (permalink)
Necromancer Divination Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,655	There are sometimes drastic separation between all the differet styles and sounds in this genre, it doesn't seem to make much sense at times.

08-21-2014, 02:15 PM	#169 (permalink)
Dylstew Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,366	There's one Nu Metal band I really love. Maximum the hormone. It's Alternative Metal/Nu Metal/ mixed with Funk Metal and modern Pop punk.They also made a few third wave ska songs. They have a male and female singer. The Nu Metal/Alternative Metal part is like System of a Down on crack, The Funk Metal/Rap Metal part is like early Red Hot Chili Peppers on crack, and then there's also the pop/pop punk parts. Oh, and they're Japanese. They're really silly and don't take themselves too seriously. I love it, for the most part. I know them the way most western people know them: Death Note Opening 2. other than that there's System of a down I like. They're more Alternative Metal than nu metal though, but I think it still counts.

08-21-2014, 02:23 PM	#170 (permalink)
Norg Music Addict Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,358	real NU metal u cant classifiy cus real NU metal= Music its just music LOL that's why people are butt hurt LOL