Is this really rock?

jerryanddrum · 05-29-2012, 06:40 AM

If the guitar solo is there just for the sake of it, even if it doesn't work, then it's rubbish, but if it fits the tune, then it's great. Guitar solos usually fit rock tunes. That's it.

Guybrush · 05-29-2012, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

I recently had occasion to move all my music collection from one drive to another, and subdivided it so that it would be easier to find the music I wanted at any given time. So from everything being under "Trollheart's Music Centre" and then listed by band and album, I made subdirectories for rock, pop, classical, instrumental, experimental and so on, with subfolders in each. This left me with something of a dilemma, as it was hard to decide what in my collection that wasn't obviously Rock (Iron Maiden, Thin Lizzy, Rory Gallagher etc) could be seen as such, and what should be classified under the pop banner.

A huge problem for me with organizing music by genre is that I don't think genres are exclusive. There's pop-rock or jazz-rock for example. How do you organize those in a genre folder system where you can only apply one genre to an album at a time? By doing it your way, you basically have to work with all those flaws because you can't get around them. That's one of the main reasons why I don't even try that and just keep it alphabetical :

ex.

Code:

Music\Y\Yes\1972 - Close to the Edge [extra info like studio/live album/remaster/label]\01. Close to the Edge.flac

I would only organize music by genres in a media player using file tags and then foobar and perhaps some other players actually tolerate multiple values in a genre tag so that a song can be both Jazz and Rock. Doing it on the folder level seems like a really bad idea (imo).

Trollheart · 05-29-2012, 12:33 PM

Yeah, it's not meant really to say anything about the music, tore, just to aid me in picking out certain albums. Like when I want to hear a prog rock album yes I can go to "Prog Rock Town" (which is part of Prog City and itself a subdiv of Rock Country) and that does restrict my idea of what the music is, but if I'm for instance looking for an Arena album, say, instead of having to page through all my bands beginning with A I can go to the Prog Rock Town folder and find it easier.

Of course, it's oversimplifying, but I got tired paging down long lists for an album, and besides this I also overhauled the whole music collection, fixing tags, album art and volume manually, so it seemed a good time to reorganise its structure. I was, indeed, dismayed by the bands I had which couldn't really be considered rock as such, not that it matters, but it was interesting.

Anyhoo, it was something I'd meant to do for a long time. Also helps in making compilations and in deciding what sort of album to review.

Thx for the comment though.

Oh yeah, this is nothing to do with how the music is organised on my media player: that goes via the appropriate tags, as you say. This is purely on my hard disk.

TH

PS If you want to see how the structure is set out, let me know and I'll upload pics. I used the idea of beginning with the main directory as being the "World", then broke it into countries, subdivided into cities, towns and in some cases villages. Just looks more cheerful I feel. God I need a girlfriend! And a holiday. And six numbers on the lotto!

Guybrush · 05-29-2012, 04:55 PM

Sorry if this sounds a bit preachy, but as a passionate digital music library owner, I'd just like to share some practical info.

You should get yourself a player with a proper customizable library function. I can warmly recommend foobar2000 although you might need a little help get started with it as it's generally not something that does all you want it to straight out of the box. We have a help thread here on all things foobar though.

Basically, you shouldn't be fiddling around in your folder except when adding or deleting files. Playing your music by digging around in folders is a thing of the past. You should organize your music collection alphabetically on the folder level and then do other kinds of sorting in the media library through your media player.

Here are some screenshots of library trees I can make on the fly :

Above you can see music organized by "scene" (work in progress) which shows British Folk Revival expanded with bands tagged as British Folk Revival appearing underneath. The band "Heron" is also expanded and those albums listed could also be expanded to reveal track lists. Didn't do that though.

Now, just as easily, I can choose to display my music by countries instead if I like.

So here's by country with Denmark expanded. The good thing here is any music file can belong to as many countries as I like. For example an album could show up under Norway as well as Denmark if f.ex the album was by a duo where one was from Denmark and the other from Norway. Folders are not able to do that for you and once you've organized everything a certain way by folder, that's how it is. To organize it another way takes a lot of work. So, organizing music like that by the folder level just doesn't make sense when it is so easy to customize how the music is presented to you in the media player. Better to just leave organization on folders alphabetically and then sort your music in more creative and powerful ways in your media player.

A slight side note here, but since you mention being able to find prog more easily .. A good media player will also let you create autoplaylists. For example, I have a playlist for all my favourite Canterbury music: that is music tagged as being part of the Canterbury scene which has a rating from 3 up to 5. Whenever a file is tagged as Canterbury and given a high rating, that file is automatically added to that playlist. I can make an endless amount of such dynamic playlists tailored to play whatever I like, whether it's my favourite songs from a specific country, favourite formats, only songs above a certain length, whatever. I just tell it what I want to listen to and songs are added automatically and it stays updated with new music should it fit the playlists criteria.

If you're still digging around in your folders to play music, you're living in the stone age, my friend.

Trollheart · 05-29-2012, 07:00 PM

Pah! I'm insulted --- wait, was that an elk that just went by? Let me grab my club --- damn where does the wife put my ---- oh yeah, here it is...

Seriously, I'm not as much into playing music on my PC as I am on the move, and for that I almost always use playlists on shuffle. I seldom listen to an album all the way through nowadays, unless it's for review. If I'm using the PC to play that, I prefer to go into the folders and look for the album, as media players essentially perform the same function IF you're looking for a SPECIFIC album. It's still folders for me. If that makes me a caveman, then perhaps when this art sells for millions in the future I can buy a proper...NO, it's a BULL! See? Horns --- A cat? Does a cat have horns??

On a sidenote, tried Foobar, hated it to death. Few media players impress me, though at the moment I'm using Winamp purely for convenience. I use an ipod and a Zen x-fi, both of which do the job well. I've tried a lot of media players, best I came across was Jriver Media Centre, but I wasn't prepared to pay seventy dollars for the privilege of using it, so once the trial ran out that was that. I liked XBMC, but there was something about it that stopped me using it, can't remember what: some sorting function I think, which was a pity as of the ones I looked at it was the most impressive.

Arya Stark · 05-30-2012, 12:03 AM

I agree with the fact that a guitar solo here and there doesn't make rock music rock music.

But, like everyone else said, and I would merely be reiterating the points already made, guitar solos aren't the only thing in music by The Black Keys, nor is it merely "rock" music.

I suggest listening again, maybe this time looking for the music, the feeling, and the soul rather than a genre to label the song with. Maybe this will help redefine the band and the music for you.

Vertigo · 05-30-2012, 07:50 AM

Just to echo previous posts, I disagree entirely that because a song has certain elements to it, it then becomes something else entirely.

How would you categorise Michael Jackson's 'Beat It'? It has a guitar solo, but is it rock? Obviously, it isn't.

Does Morbid Angel's 'Blessed Are The Sick' become folk or classical because it has flute and piano in it?

Urban Hat€monger ? · 05-30-2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vertigo

How would you categorise Michael Jackson's 'Beat It'? It has a guitar solo, but is it rock? Obviously, it isn't.

Why isn't it?
The song seems to be written around a main guitar riff which is how most rock songs are created anyway. It's has the same in structure & style to virtually every rock song I've ever heard.

I would say everything about it makes it a rock song.

Vertigo · 05-30-2012, 08:47 AM

Hmmm...interesting point, but I still can't class it as a rock song. It's too...lightweight to be a rock song but I may say that because, subconsciously, I'm a slave to the whole genre thing, maybe not.

I suppose it's down to individual interpretation.

Guybrush · 05-30-2012, 09:00 AM

As previously stated, I mentally classify "rock" as having more to do with the band and the instrumentation than I do with their particular sound. If a rock band plays blues, then it's blues rock. If they are inspired by classical music, they may play symphonic rock. If they play jazz, you call it fusion or jazz rock.

05-29-2012, 12:33 PM	#13 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	Yeah, it's not meant really to say anything about the music, tore, just to aid me in picking out certain albums. Like when I want to hear a prog rock album yes I can go to "Prog Rock Town" (which is part of Prog City and itself a subdiv of Rock Country) and that does restrict my idea of what the music is, but if I'm for instance looking for an Arena album, say, instead of having to page through all my bands beginning with A I can go to the Prog Rock Town folder and find it easier. Of course, it's oversimplifying, but I got tired paging down long lists for an album, and besides this I also overhauled the whole music collection, fixing tags, album art and volume manually, so it seemed a good time to reorganise its structure. I was, indeed, dismayed by the bands I had which couldn't really be considered rock as such, not that it matters, but it was interesting. Anyhoo, it was something I'd meant to do for a long time. Also helps in making compilations and in deciding what sort of album to review. Thx for the comment though. Oh yeah, this is nothing to do with how the music is organised on my media player: that goes via the appropriate tags, as you say. This is purely on my hard disk. TH PS If you want to see how the structure is set out, let me know and I'll upload pics. I used the idea of beginning with the main directory as being the "World", then broke it into countries, subdivided into cities, towns and in some cases villages. Just looks more cheerful I feel. God I need a girlfriend! And a holiday. And six numbers on the lotto! __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

05-29-2012, 04:55 PM	#14 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	Sorry if this sounds a bit preachy, but as a passionate digital music library owner, I'd just like to share some practical info. You should get yourself a player with a proper customizable library function. I can warmly recommend foobar2000 although you might need a little help get started with it as it's generally not something that does all you want it to straight out of the box. We have a help thread here on all things foobar though. Basically, you shouldn't be fiddling around in your folder except when adding or deleting files. Playing your music by digging around in folders is a thing of the past. You should organize your music collection alphabetically on the folder level and then do other kinds of sorting in the media library through your media player. Here are some screenshots of library trees I can make on the fly : Above you can see music organized by "scene" (work in progress) which shows British Folk Revival expanded with bands tagged as British Folk Revival appearing underneath. The band "Heron" is also expanded and those albums listed could also be expanded to reveal track lists. Didn't do that though. Now, just as easily, I can choose to display my music by countries instead if I like. So here's by country with Denmark expanded. The good thing here is any music file can belong to as many countries as I like. For example an album could show up under Norway as well as Denmark if f.ex the album was by a duo where one was from Denmark and the other from Norway. Folders are not able to do that for you and once you've organized everything a certain way by folder, that's how it is. To organize it another way takes a lot of work. So, organizing music like that by the folder level just doesn't make sense when it is so easy to customize how the music is presented to you in the media player. Better to just leave organization on folders alphabetically and then sort your music in more creative and powerful ways in your media player. A slight side note here, but since you mention being able to find prog more easily .. A good media player will also let you create autoplaylists. For example, I have a playlist for all my favourite Canterbury music: that is music tagged as being part of the Canterbury scene which has a rating from 3 up to 5. Whenever a file is tagged as Canterbury and given a high rating, that file is automatically added to that playlist. I can make an endless amount of such dynamic playlists tailored to play whatever I like, whether it's my favourite songs from a specific country, favourite formats, only songs above a certain length, whatever. I just tell it what I want to listen to and songs are added automatically and it stays updated with new music should it fit the playlists criteria. If you're still digging around in your folders to play music, you're living in the stone age, my friend. __________________ Something Completely Different Last edited by Guybrush; 05-29-2012 at 05:04 PM.

05-29-2012, 07:00 PM	#15 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	Pah! I'm insulted --- wait, was that an elk that just went by? Let me grab my club --- damn where does the wife put my ---- oh yeah, here it is... Seriously, I'm not as much into playing music on my PC as I am on the move, and for that I almost always use playlists on shuffle. I seldom listen to an album all the way through nowadays, unless it's for review. If I'm using the PC to play that, I prefer to go into the folders and look for the album, as media players essentially perform the same function IF you're looking for a SPECIFIC album. It's still folders for me. If that makes me a caveman, then perhaps when this art sells for millions in the future I can buy a proper...NO, it's a BULL! See? Horns --- A cat? Does a cat have horns?? On a sidenote, tried Foobar, hated it to death. Few media players impress me, though at the moment I'm using Winamp purely for convenience. I use an ipod and a Zen x-fi, both of which do the job well. I've tried a lot of media players, best I came across was Jriver Media Centre, but I wasn't prepared to pay seventy dollars for the privilege of using it, so once the trial ran out that was that. I liked XBMC, but there was something about it that stopped me using it, can't remember what: some sorting function I think, which was a pity as of the ones I looked at it was the most impressive. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

05-30-2012, 09:00 AM	#20 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	As previously stated, I mentally classify "rock" as having more to do with the band and the instrumentation than I do with their particular sound. If a rock band plays blues, then it's blues rock. If they are inspired by classical music, they may play symphonic rock. If they play jazz, you call it fusion or jazz rock. __________________ Something Completely Different

05-29-2012, 06:40 AM	#11 (permalink)
jerryanddrum Groupie Join Date: May 2012 Location: London Posts: 23	If the guitar solo is there just for the sake of it, even if it doesn't work, then it's rubbish, but if it fits the tune, then it's great. Guitar solos usually fit rock tunes. That's it.

05-30-2012, 07:50 AM	#17 (permalink)
Vertigo Music Addict Join Date: May 2012 Location: North West England Posts: 167	Just to echo previous posts, I disagree entirely that because a song has certain elements to it, it then becomes something else entirely. How would you categorise Michael Jackson's 'Beat It'? It has a guitar solo, but is it rock? Obviously, it isn't. Does Morbid Angel's 'Blessed Are The Sick' become folk or classical because it has flute and piano in it?

05-30-2012, 08:47 AM	#19 (permalink)
Vertigo Music Addict Join Date: May 2012 Location: North West England Posts: 167	Hmmm...interesting point, but I still can't class it as a rock song. It's too...lightweight to be a rock song but I may say that because, subconsciously, I'm a slave to the whole genre thing, maybe not. I suppose it's down to individual interpretation.