Does amazing music justify the grief that produced it?

jastrub · 11-19-2011, 10:02 PM

It is almost unanimously accepted in the art world that loss, despair, loneliness, alienation, fear and grief can contribute to the creation of beautifully profound finished products that would've never come into being without said negative emotions being experienced by the artist.

The most striking musical example of this is Nick Drake. Drake's first two releases (Five Leaves Left and Bryter Layter) were lush and, although not lacking darkness, upbeat records oriented around Joe Boyd's slick production style and his mellow Donovan-esque songwriting. Although these two albums are quality records in my opinion, they still come off as dated, and some of the songwriting is undeniably generic. However, after the commercial and critical failure of his second album, Drake spiraled even deeper into his ever-present depression, becoming something of a recluse and declining to tour at all. This all translated into Pink Moon, a brief but utterly astounding album which expresses the existential melancholy and solace that Drake was experiencing at the time. It is, no doubt, his greatest achievement, and is one of the most profound albums I've ever listened to. After producing the record, however, Drake speedily expired (many claim that it was a result of suicide and there is sufficient evidence to back that up).

Other songwriters, such as Tom Waits and Van Morrison, produced some masterworks in times of great loneliness and despair. In a more detached way, John Lennon's solo work was greatly influenced by the alienation he felt as a child and the estrangement from his family. Would Plastic Ono Band be nearly as amazing as a record if it weren't for John's abandonment as a child? How about the entire Grunge movement? Or look at Rush. After nearly 5 years of extremely poor songwriting, Neil Peart's daughter and wife died. Facing the onset of a deep depression, Peart disappeared for some time on a cross-country bike ride to rid himself of his grief. When he finally returned into the studio, he brought with him some of his richest songwriting since the Signals/Grace Under Pressure sessions.

So what do you think? Does an amazing artistic product justify the depression and brooding despair of the individual artist?

Paedantic Basterd · 11-19-2011, 10:05 PM

Or does the success of albums born of despair lie with us and our ability to relate to them instead?

Necromancer · 11-22-2011, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jastrub

Other songwriters, such as Tom Waits and Van Morrison, produced some masterworks in times of great loneliness and despair. In a more detached way, John Lennon's solo work was greatly influenced by the alienation he felt as a child and the estrangement from his family. Would Plastic Ono Band be nearly as amazing as a record if it weren't for John's abandonment as a child? How about the entire Grunge movement? Or look at Rush. After nearly 5 years of extremely poor songwriting, Neil Peart's daughter and wife died. Facing the onset of a deep depression, Peart disappeared for some time on a cross-country bike ride to rid himself of his grief. When he finally returned into the studio, he brought with him some of his richest songwriting since the Signals/Grace Under Pressure sessions.

So what do you think? Does an amazing artistic product justify the depression and brooding despair of the individual artist?

I agree with all of the above. Artist like Van Morrison are icons.

Grunge is a definite.

I see most of the grief in Grunge. I really don't know where your leading, by saying justify the grief. You might suggest the amazing music created by Cobain and Stanley could justify the grief (in some sense). They're dead rock stars aren't they? Its nothing new in/to rock & roll.

edit: Rush
That's why Ive always suggested as one of the reasons, that one of Rush's best albums is "Caress Of Steel". The lyrics by Neail Peart from the album "Caress Of Steel" are some of his best. As well, I personally think the music itself is all around better than their next album release 2112.

Although I like 2112, and other albums by Rush also.

tommycas · 11-30-2011, 03:33 PM

I can be mad at the world, and create something sugary and sweet. With the same token, I can be happy as ****, and write something absolutely morbid.

newkill · 12-10-2011, 12:15 PM

Sad and depressing songs are often more powerful than happy songs.
One of my favorite band, Opeth, most of their song are quite depressive, but are very deep and give me chills sometimes.

s_k · 12-10-2011, 01:16 PM

The least you can do for a tortured musician is like his music

.

starrynight · 12-10-2011, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jastrub

The most striking musical example of this is Nick Drake. Drake's first two releases (Five Leaves Left and Bryter Layter) were lush and, although not lacking darkness, upbeat records oriented around Joe Boyd's slick production style and his mellow Donovan-esque songwriting. Although these two albums are quality records in my opinion, they still come off as dated, and some of the songwriting is undeniably generic.

I don't agree with this at all. His first album is his best imo. The second is overproduced, but the third is underproduced (unfinished I suppose too). His last is probably his weakest for me, but it gets romanticised by people as he died soon after the recordings.

And I'm not sure artists can be creative during despair, that is likely to sap them of energy and creative thoughts. It's a bit of a romantic era view that artists are best when suffering, normally they show suffering in their work after they have suffered and when they feel free to be creative again. And I'm not sure sad or dark work has to be seen as better than more serene or happier efforts either.

Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra · 12-10-2011, 05:27 PM

Yes.

starrynight · 12-10-2011, 06:32 PM

Also how is an artist in despair if he is producing a successful musical creation, he's probably quite happy at what he has done. If anything he/she is exorcising the grief and so finding a way to put it more in the past. So the work actually isn't just related to the grief, but is just as much related to the artist finding his way out of his problems. So if it justifies the grief, it also justifies his/her having found a way out of that grief too.

~~Rubato~~ · 12-10-2011, 09:34 PM

If an amazing piece of art is the by-product of despair and suffering then it its far better than suffering for nothing. Compiling your thoughts and emotions into a piece of music/painting/poem/diary is therapeutic so I'd don't see any downside. If on the other hand the artist purposefully creates distressing situations in which to draw from, then we'd have a scruple on our hands, but then again artists are known to be eccentric.

11-19-2011, 10:02 PM	#1 (permalink)
jastrub Groupie Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 47	Does amazing music justify the grief that produced it? It is almost unanimously accepted in the art world that loss, despair, loneliness, alienation, fear and grief can contribute to the creation of beautifully profound finished products that would've never come into being without said negative emotions being experienced by the artist. The most striking musical example of this is Nick Drake. Drake's first two releases (Five Leaves Left and Bryter Layter) were lush and, although not lacking darkness, upbeat records oriented around Joe Boyd's slick production style and his mellow Donovan-esque songwriting. Although these two albums are quality records in my opinion, they still come off as dated, and some of the songwriting is undeniably generic. However, after the commercial and critical failure of his second album, Drake spiraled even deeper into his ever-present depression, becoming something of a recluse and declining to tour at all. This all translated into Pink Moon, a brief but utterly astounding album which expresses the existential melancholy and solace that Drake was experiencing at the time. It is, no doubt, his greatest achievement, and is one of the most profound albums I've ever listened to. After producing the record, however, Drake speedily expired (many claim that it was a result of suicide and there is sufficient evidence to back that up). Other songwriters, such as Tom Waits and Van Morrison, produced some masterworks in times of great loneliness and despair. In a more detached way, John Lennon's solo work was greatly influenced by the alienation he felt as a child and the estrangement from his family. Would Plastic Ono Band be nearly as amazing as a record if it weren't for John's abandonment as a child? How about the entire Grunge movement? Or look at Rush. After nearly 5 years of extremely poor songwriting, Neil Peart's daughter and wife died. Facing the onset of a deep depression, Peart disappeared for some time on a cross-country bike ride to rid himself of his grief. When he finally returned into the studio, he brought with him some of his richest songwriting since the Signals/Grace Under Pressure sessions. So what do you think? Does an amazing artistic product justify the depression and brooding despair of the individual artist? __________________ We can walk our road together If our goals are all the same. We can run alone and free If we pursue a different aim. Let the truth of love be lighted, Let the love of truth shine clear. Sensibility, armed with sense and liberty, With the Heart and Mind united In a single, perfect Sphere [Links removed by moderator] And in the end, The love you take Is equal to the love you make The New Liberterian Left: Liberty, Equality, Freedom, Joy, Security, Non-Aggression, Compassion, Direct Action, Rationalism, Reverence, Respect, Socratic Questioning, Harmony, Acceptance, Institutional Change, Social individualism and economic collectivism

12-10-2011, 01:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
s_k Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,206	The least you can do for a tortured musician is like his music . __________________ Click here to see my collection

12-10-2011, 06:32 PM	#9 (permalink)
starrynight Music Addict Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 937	Also how is an artist in despair if he is producing a successful musical creation, he's probably quite happy at what he has done. If anything he/she is exorcising the grief and so finding a way to put it more in the past. So the work actually isn't just related to the grief, but is just as much related to the artist finding his way out of his problems. So if it justifies the grief, it also justifies his/her having found a way out of that grief too. __________________ non-cliquey member of every music forum I participate on

11-19-2011, 10:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
Paedantic Basterd Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 5,184	Or does the success of albums born of despair lie with us and our ability to relate to them instead?

11-30-2011, 03:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
tommycas Groupie Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 13	I can be mad at the world, and create something sugary and sweet. With the same token, I can be happy as ****, and write something absolutely morbid.

12-10-2011, 12:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
newkill Groupie Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 7	Sad and depressing songs are often more powerful than happy songs. One of my favorite band, Opeth, most of their song are quite depressive, but are very deep and give me chills sometimes.

12-10-2011, 09:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
~~Rubato~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Ireland Posts: 230	If an amazing piece of art is the by-product of despair and suffering then it its far better than suffering for nothing. Compiling your thoughts and emotions into a piece of music/painting/poem/diary is therapeutic so I'd don't see any downside. If on the other hand the artist purposefully creates distressing situations in which to draw from, then we'd have a scruple on our hands, but then again artists are known to be eccentric.