Yes, I would consider Torture Garden incredibly significant to both metal, and jazz. But don't assume just because I have Zorn in my avatar doesn't mean I'm speaking of him in particular.

Jazz and Metal are "bottomless" for the same reason. They integrate other genres. I mean, Metal would have died in the 80s if it didn't integrate classical and punk, and probably dead now if it didn't integrate a myriad of other genres. World musics(ie. folk), jazz, classical, etc.

Free jazz is a style that developed in the 1960s. So what? Over the last 40 years jazz has definitely moved in different directions. Look at acid jazz, nu jazz, and more recently jazz-punk and hardcore styles.

I honestly don't know how to tackle a response like this. Coltrane was most definitely not the final stepping stone of jazz; yes, he brought it to unbelievable heights of spirituality, but even after his death, Miles Davis helped branched jazz out further. Free Improv artists started taking their jazz undertones and putting them up for display. Avant-garde jazz artists continued to expand their horizons, rivaling modern-classical composers for complexity of arrangements.

As Conan said, jazz-punk, nu-jazz... All of them are recent deviations from the regular jazz sound into something new. Innovation did not halt on Coltrane's death.

Grindcore and black metal are essentially meldings of standard metal and other genres - they're not distinctively metal. A LOT of grindcore sounds like a rational altercation between metal and hardcore punk/powerviolence. In that case, punk is JUST as innovative as metal, because it too has branched into something different.

You're being awfully difficult, aren't you? This just isn't true; while punk as a 'lifestyle' has become a complete joke (**** bands like Choking Victim, Leftover Crack, Star ****ing Hipsters, absolute disgraces to the term 'punk'), several of the famed punk artists of the 80s still release music; in fact, in their old age they tend to be more inventive, experimenting with wider arrangements of people, paving the way for new expression. Their anger most certainly has not died. Much like any other genre, it's become stagnated due to an overwhelming increase in terrible copycat bands, but that happens in EVERY genre, even metal.

How can folk music not be distinct? It IS the most distinct genre ever, if anything, as its sole purpose is to be the music of the people. Yes, each culture/subculture will have its own flares that they put into their folk traditions, but the sounds overlap so often, it's not even funny. Much of the Western folk I've heard borrows greatly from Eastern folk, especially in the southern countries (at least from personal experience).

In folk, you have people ALL over the world, taking what is generally the same idea and injecting their own thoughts into them. Obviously there are exceptions (any folk from Africa that I've heard is far more angular), but the general consensus from my hearings is that there is a very obvious similarity.

In contrast, I've heard power metal from 10-15 different countries. Virtually no change in structure or approach exists; the notes are different, but there is virtually no originality injected into said craft. So what if tomorrow a Nigerian power metal band is created? If they don't offer anything original to the genre, then it's not even worth mentioning that they're there.

You seem to have that kind of concern:

Who cares if people in two different countries do it if they don't do anything different from one another. Maybe that means metal is everywhere, but it doesn't mean that it's a 'bottomless pit', because being a bottomless pit requires constant reinvention. Not just copycatting.

I think a post of that stature deserves a round of applause.

:clap:

you clearly haven't been listening to the right things if you think this

How can something be the biggest bottomless pit?

well if you've got a bunch of bottomless pits, even if they've all got infinite depth, they could concievably vary in width, making the one with the biggest width the biggest; significant because if you've got a bottomless hole that is only 1 foot across, much less stuff is going to fall in than if it is 50 feet across

(duh)

Zorn just always hooks up with the right people, like that Boredoms guy. Although, I do think very highly of Masada.




Good point.


I also scoff at the bands you mentioned so we have something in common. What new stuff by 80's era punk (or post punk) do you recommend? As for your last statement about copycat bands, the thing is with metal, I still like the copycat bands! And it's not just because I'm more forgiving with metal (or is it?).

I knew someone was going to say that. Thing is all bottomless pits would still occupy the same infinite amount of negative space regardless of how wide their openings are. So there. :p:

I want to start this post by saying I love metal. So don't get off thinking I'm anti-metal or anything, lol.

Anyway, while metal might be a bottomless pit its mostly because there's tons of generic bands ripping exactly the same sound off without any real change. This isn't a bad thing because I listen to tons of bands that rip one another off in this way. Now as said earlier in this thread I know more about metal than other genres of music, but either way, it still seems to be bottomless because there's tons of one man black metal projects being recorded in a bathroom or whatever. Now, its crappy some of the time, no doubt. At the same time though you listen to it because its so much like other acts in the genre that you do join. Unfortunately in some aspects metals become an extremely stagnant genre.