who invented punk (rock, The Ramones, sex pistols, cover, quote)

Noise Wall · 04-02-2012, 03:04 AM

All of the early 70s punk rock bands(Sex pistols, Ramones, Stooges) are just Rock and Roll groups, protopunk at the very most. The Velvet Underground is pretty rad, but pretty damn far from being anything even remotely punk rock. The earliest legitimate punk group that I know of is the Germs, both in terms of vocal melody and instrumentation. There could be some that came before that were actual punk rock groups, I'm not really a punker, but Johny Rotten, Iggy Pop, Dee Dee, and certainly Lou Reed had nothing to do with them.

Unknown Soldier · 04-02-2012, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noise Wall

All of the early 70s punk rock bands(Sex pistols, Ramones, Stooges) are just Rock and Roll groups, protopunk at the very most. The Velvet Underground is pretty rad, but pretty damn far from being anything even remotely punk rock. The earliest legitimate punk group that I know of is the Germs, both in terms of vocal melody and instrumentation. There could be some that came before that were actual punk rock groups, I'm not really a punker, but Johny Rotten, Iggy Pop, Dee Dee, and certainly Lou Reed had nothing to do with them.

Based on what you've written above, I'd certainly say you were no punker!

mr dave · 04-02-2012, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noise Wall

I'm not really a punker, but Johny Rotten, Iggy Pop, Dee Dee, and certainly Lou Reed had nothing to do with them.

Yeah... NO.

To say Iggy Pop had nothing to do with the establishment of punk rock is flat out wrong. They might not have called themselves The Punks but referring to themselves as The Stooges wasn't exactly better. It's like the difference between calling someone a bum or an ass or maybe a jerk or a prick. They're terms that more or less describe the same thing when used colloquially as they were back in their day.

But ultimately the musical style grew from the attitude of not giving a crap about perceived social and industry expectations for the artist's creation as well as presenting a creative output that forced the listener to consider unexpected perspectives.

Based on that attitude I'd say modern punk rock and its attitude exists as they do because of this guy:

Ornette Coleman is not just one of the Free Jazz pioneers. He's the badass mofo who INVENTED it. In 1959 his first album with Atlantic Records was released - 'The Shape of Jazz to Come', modern punks familiar with The Refused are recognizing a familiar album name right now. That album marked one of (if not the) first time a musical artist was able to release a full album of an untested style to the mainstream. It proved that a record that eschewed traditional methods and relied primarily on emotion and passion over technique and control could still be a commercially viable product thereby satisfying both the bean counters at the label and the creativity of the artist.

He might not be a 'punk' per se but if it weren't for Mr. Coleman's badassery up there, I really don't think we'd have nearly as much freedom of styles and techniques available in popular music today.

Screen13 · 04-02-2012, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr dave

Yeah... NO.

To say Iggy Pop had nothing to do with the establishment of punk rock is flat out wrong. They might not have called themselves The Punks but referring to themselves as The Stooges wasn't exactly better. It's like the difference between calling someone a bum or an ass or maybe a jerk or a prick. They're terms that more or less describe the same thing when used colloquially as they were back in their day.

But ultimately the musical style grew from the attitude of not giving a crap about perceived social and industry expectations for the artist's creation as well as presenting a creative output that forced the listener to consider unexpected perspectives.

Based on that attitude I'd say modern punk rock and its attitude exists as they do because of this guy:

Ornette Coleman is not just one of the Free Jazz pioneers. He's the badass mofo who INVENTED it. In 1959 his first album with Atlantic Records was released - 'The Shape of Jazz to Come', modern punks familiar with The Refused are recognizing a familiar album name right now. That album marked one of (if not the) first time a musical artist was able to release a full album of an untested style to the mainstream. It proved that a record that eschewed traditional methods and relied primarily on emotion and passion over technique and control could still be a commercially viable product thereby satisfying both the bean counters at the label and the creativity of the artist.

He might not be a 'punk' per se but if it weren't for Mr. Coleman's badassery up there, I really don't think we'd have nearly as much freedom of styles and techniques available in popular music today.

^ This! Plus Sun Ra. Throw in Woody Guthrie for the Strummer connection and maybe Phil Ochs.

Read on for something interesting.

The Jazz-Punk Connection

While I would call Iggy and The Stooges Raw Power the first Punk Rock album for it's attitude and in your face anger that inspired a lot of outsiders and musicians in the middle of the 70's, or even their first album and maybe the Velvet Underground's White Light/White Heat, without legends like Ra, Coleman, and the others mentioned in the article, possibly NOTHING would have happened.

Think about The Stooges' Funhouse (those Sax breaks!), think about the MC5's "Starship," "Black to Comm," and "Skunk (Sonically Speaking)," think about the first two Velvet Underground Albums. All had to have that major inspiration that made them want to kick down the barriers or at least offer a new edge to Rock.

mr dave · 04-03-2012, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screen13

The Jazz-Punk Connection

aaaAAWWWWWWW YEAH!!!! JAZZ-PUNK!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Pat

I'm not entirely sure that he solely invented free jazz by himself. What about Cecil Taylor?

I wouldn't ever try to deny Taylor's influence. I cite Coleman because he's credited with establishing a distinct musical philosophy (Harmolodic) that was first applied with his landmark recording. It's not a matter of necessarily being the first or the best to bring improvisation to the table but rather than just having it on the table Coleman made it the main course and was able to convince others to take the risk of releasing the first album that featured those distinctions.

TockTockTock · 04-02-2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr dave

Ornette Coleman is not just one of the Free Jazz pioneers. He's the badass mofo who INVENTED it. In 1959 his first album with Atlantic Records was released - 'The Shape of Jazz to Come', modern punks familiar with The Refused are recognizing a familiar album name right now. That album marked one of (if not the) first time a musical artist was able to release a full album of an untested style to the mainstream. It proved that a record that eschewed traditional methods and relied primarily on emotion and passion over technique and control could still be a commercially viable product thereby satisfying both the bean counters at the label and the creativity of the artist.
\

I'm not entirely sure that he solely invented free jazz by himself. What about Cecil Taylor?

**Janszoon** · 04-02-2012, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noise Wall

All of the early 70s punk rock bands(Sex pistols, Ramones, Stooges) are just Rock and Roll groups, protopunk at the very most. The Velvet Underground is pretty rad, but pretty damn far from being anything even remotely punk rock. The earliest legitimate punk group that I know of is the Germs, both in terms of vocal melody and instrumentation. There could be some that came before that were actual punk rock groups, I'm not really a punker, but Johny Rotten, Iggy Pop, Dee Dee, and certainly Lou Reed had nothing to do with them.

In other news: Charlie Parker isn't jazz.

Noise Wall · 04-02-2012, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

In other news: Charlie Parker isn't jazz.

Its all relative. I wasn't speaking in technical terms, I just consider Sex Pistols and the Ramones to be far removed from what the majority of the 80s punk rock movement resembled.

TockTockTock · 04-02-2012, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noise Wall

Its all relative. I wasn't speaking in technical terms, I just consider Sex Pistols and the Ramones to be far removed from what the majority of the 80s punk rock movement resembled.

How?

**Janszoon** · 04-02-2012, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noise Wall

Its all relative. I wasn't speaking in technical terms, I just consider Sex Pistols and the Ramones to be far removed from what the majority of the 80s punk rock movement resembled.

That's because the majority of the 80s punk movement had moved in the direction of hardcore.

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04-02-2012, 03:04 AM	#1 (permalink)
Noise Wall Groupie Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Souvlaki Space Station Posts: 35	All of the early 70s punk rock bands(Sex pistols, Ramones, Stooges) are just Rock and Roll groups, protopunk at the very most. The Velvet Underground is pretty rad, but pretty damn far from being anything even remotely punk rock. The earliest legitimate punk group that I know of is the Germs, both in terms of vocal melody and instrumentation. There could be some that came before that were actual punk rock groups, I'm not really a punker, but Johny Rotten, Iggy Pop, Dee Dee, and certainly Lou Reed had nothing to do with them.