What is rock? What is metal?
 

What are the characteristics that define the two music forms? In my experience its not metal unless the lead singer is growling.

It's true there are a lot of forms of metal where growling is the norm, but there are also quite a few others where the singing is almost operatic. So I don't think that's the best way of classifying metal.

What is mettal? What is rock?

i don't know how you would really sum the two up. rock is a vast genre with many different sub genres. metal depends on a few factors too and has all it's own sub-genres too. to me it's the whole sound that makes it metal. that depends on era to. i've seen motley crue, poison, whitesnake, etc. classified as metal but i wouldn't consider it metal at all.

some of the things, in my opinion anyways, that make music metal is that a lot of the time metal bands will use a drop tuning to make it deeper, thicker, more eerie, loud type sound. a lot of bass double kicking on the drums is used as well. it more or less has a thicker, heavier sound than the majority of rock bands.

every one has a differing opinions on what's metal though. you might say a band is metal where i would say it was more rock so there really is easy way to class it. again i think the time it was produced plays a big factor because a lot of old "metal" would be considered hard rock by today's standards as metal has evolved into heavier and faster beats today. don't know if this helps at all.

devildriver, system of a down, black sabbath, the agonist, the agony scene, megadeth - metal

godsmack, papa roach, nickelback, ac/dc - rock

Metal is also directly descended from rock so a lot of metal is really just a subgenre of the gigantic umbrella genre that is rock. It's only when you start talking about a band like Sunn 0))) that I think you're talking about a type of metal that isn't rock.

Let me put in two cents and see what y'all think. I thought that mettal bands typically used a faster paced music where the electric gitar was more in the forefornt of the music where as in rock the electric gitars are more simply a member of the band rather than the dominant member. The music tends to disapear into the gitars. In rock the instruments tend to be more of equal members of the band.

Nope. Guitar is often the dominant instrument in both. Listen to Chuck Berry, Dick Dale or Jimi Hendrix and you can hear just how dominant the guitar can be in rock.

The difference between rock and metal is the emotions they elicit, IMO, hard to define

It's more like you know metal when you hear it, and you know rock when you hear it.

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http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1.../flywheel1.jpg

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I like this explanation

well, the way I see it, the big difference is that metal uses heavier guitar riffs

Rock traditionally uses a distorted Blues Riff. Metal distorts that even further and incorporates elements of Classical and Opera. Not exclusively or even predominantly but time signatures and song structures (crescendos etc) borrow from Classical music and the theatrics of Opera.

So what then is rock and and pop? I like discussion questions like this trying to get a handle on illusive questions.

What do you think it is?

if you listen to the music you should be able to understand it.

The truth is there are too many sub categories. Many bands cross over themselves.

For example...is "We're Not Gonna Take it" rock or metal?

My deciding factor is: If older folks tap their feet it's rock. If they look at me like I'm the devil himself it's heavy metal. And it rules.

What about old metal heads?

Ah. A curve ball!

Old Metalheads are so cool they like both....metal is still #1 to them, though. See what happens when you make fun of Motorhead in front of them. It gets bloody.

I'm an old metal head but it's not #1 for me anymore.

Ditto.
But if you want a nerdie explanation, look on wiki.
According to it, metal originated from Blues rock and Psychedelic rock.

Are you for real or what?System of a down is metal?That is the funniest thing i've heard for a while.Apparently agonist and agony scene are metalcore,according to metal-archives.Your choice of bands to describe the epic journey that is metal disturbs me greatly.Sabbath and Megadeth...my granny could name those.

I personally think 2 things seperate metal from rock:complexity and heaviness.

Proper metal is complex,nuanced music.It has layers,and depth.It is played by skilled musicians,alot of whom are masters,and are peers of master classical musicians. Anybody can play rock,and even make a living from it.There are plenty of rock bands that make it big because of marketability,not talent. Like i said,anybody can play rock,it doesn't take alot of talent,just look at the charts.That's not to say there aren't rockers who are good enough to play metal music,there are plenty i'm sure.But you won't see meg white or the drummer from good charlotte playing any Tomas Haake material any time soon.

Heaviness is probably subjective but i think it is fairly easy to identify.Where you draw the line,who knows.It is blurred now by sub-genres such as post-rock/metal and post-hardcore.I think that is why people use myriad sub-genres to describe music.What is Isis,Tool,Fates Warning,Buried Inside?I call them all metal,because they have all done heavy,complex material,and to call them rock belittles them in my eyes.But plenty of people swear that Tool,Isis and Fates Warning are not metal bands.But to list in the same genre as Nickelback?No thanks.

I don't think it has to be complex and it definitely doesn't have to be nuanced to be metal. In fact a lot of metal has it's appeal in it's lack of nuance.

I'm guessing your a fan of Deathspell Omega?

Anyway, what you said has some truth to it, but I don't think metal is differentiable solely because of talent and complexity. Tons of doom metal bands aren't really complex or talented in the slightest, yet they're obviously still metal. Its really quite hard to make a clear cut line between rock and metal, but I would just say heaviness separates the two. Nothing more, nothing less.

Everything i said was in comparison to rock music,not stand alone

It all depends on what you yourself think what metal is. And what it boils down to is what started metal. Its the bands like Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and of course Black Sabbath. While nowadays they aren't really considered metal. But they were. And as you keep going forward in time you can see what has evolved from those bands. Those bands all developed from blues and classical. And you cans still see all of those elements in todays metal. To me personally it has to be bleusy to be metal. I think for it to be metal is has to have elements of everything previous pioneers have done to pave the way for metal. Metal is a direct descendant of blues in my opinion. And from that developed great bands such as the previously mentioned. And from that came great bands like Judas Priest, Iron Maiden etc. Then thrash metal came thanks to the likes of Metallica. It all have evolved and does sound alot differant from back in the day. But remaining the same roots has made metal what it today.

Pop, the word, is short for...?
Rock can be pop.

And to be fair, aside from the origins, metal is simply the darker side of rock. Hence the headbangers couldn't ever like something like The White Stripes, because TWS have yet to barb wire a lamb to a crucifix.

Of course System of a Down is considered a Metal band. Most of their albums are labeled alternative-metal. Their won best metal album awards, that's the section you'll find them in on Itunes.

To suggest otherwise is to be blind. Perception is reality.

Rock:


Metal:

Crash pretty much summed it up.

why would someone dig up this thread? There is clearly a metal and rock education sticky up top that basically tells you the difference between the two

Some metal can be quite slow. Check out Electric Wizard and the Melvins.

I'm going to go with those saying that metal is defined by 'heaviness'. To be a metal band, you've got to have something more extreme than simple rock and roll: instruments, vocals, lyrical subjects, etc. That's why Black Sabbath is a metal band, and AC/DC isn't.

It doesn't have to be darker to be metal. Power metal is not really dark, but then, rock doesn't sing about battles and dragonslaying :)

simpa in oder 4 a bad 2 b metul thar has 2 be screaming in it. thar4 black sabbath n metallica r not metul thar alternative.

its music >_>

Form vs. Function question
 

WHAT!?! You mean Led Zeppelin is no longer considered metal?!? And for a moment I was thinking, "Hey! I like Stairway to Heaven! Maybe I *DO* like metal music!"

No, but seriously, I've been reading this thread to learn more about metal music vs. rock because, as I've discussed with The Abominable Homan, metal music usually makes me cower under a table and so I don't get to hear the whole impact of the songs. Thus I have never tried to understand the genre fully. I am wondering several things about metal music vs. rock:

(1) If it *is* the emotion that metal elicits that defines it as metal vs. rock, what is that emotion for most people? A zest for, or welcoming of, the awful realities of life/death? Is metal kind of an auditory Halloween in which people work through mortality by appearing to embrace death as a way of dealing with it? (By the way, I liked the description someone had of metal as music that makes older people look at you like you are the spawn of the devil).

(2) What other genres besides metal deal with these themes (death/destruction), and would/could those songs be considered "metal" based on theme alone? For example, if I played a metal-sounding song with lyrics about butterflies touching my arm like the fingers of a lover, would the song still be metal because it *sounded* like metal, or would it just be a spoof of metal? Or, on the other hand, can a sweet-sounding song about something horrendous (that shocks my mother-in-law) still be metal because of the theme? Those, by the way, are *my* favorite types of songs...the ones the subtly demolish people's most cherished traditions or conceptions.

My general question here is how much of the definition of "genre" such as "metal" vs. "rock" is based on the sound, and how much is based on the content? From your thread it sounds as if you have varied opinions as to whether form or function is more important for classifying songs into genres such as "rock" and "metal."
--Erica

Metal does not deal exclusively with dark subjects and that is a narrow minded view of the whole scene. Although the songs about eating babies hearts are the reason why I love my brootal metal.

Thank you. I'm so sick of genre arguments. "That isn't metal, it's rock." "This isn't rock, it's metal." "That's not math rock, it's art rock." Etc.

Yes but they will still always rage on. I hate them too but what can we do- bands need to be pigeonholed in order to appeal to a set of fans. Sub genres have increased tenfold since I got into music. It's the nature of the beast and it can't be stopped unfortunately :(

Yeah I understand that grouping bands into genres is a convenient way to know what you will and will not like, and bands need to assign themselves to a genre in order to reach a fan base. But there's just too many arguments and discrepancies over all these crazy subgenres that it just gets ridiculous. Anyway.

Metal is always rock, rock is not always metal.