The Official Metallica Thread (rock, albums, Queen, Metalhead, guitarist)

[Seltzer]

Please don't use the number of sales/opinions argument - it's very weak. People are ignorant and that's a fact. How many of those people listen to a wide range of music and have heard many guitarists? How many of those people even realise that Hammett doesn't write all his solos, and certainly not many of the riffs. So while they have opinions, which shouldn't be used in argument, they're not even informed opinions.

Just looking at their list of 100 greatest solos. The solo for One is #7 - do they even realise that Hammett didn't write that? And Smells Like Teen Spirit at #26 - that does nothing for the credit of the fans. . It looks like none of these guys have heard any non rock/metal/blues music. The fact that I see "How to Play Punk with Simple Plan" says a lot about the magazine/readers.

You're saying Metallica is popular - I don't understand what relevance that has to Hammett's guitarplaying.

How can you say Hammett has branched out the most? Burton didn't have the chance to branch out, and judging from what he did in the space of one album, he would have branched out far more than any of them. Ulrich is too ****ty to branch out. From what I can see, Hetfield/Burton wrote the most 'unconventional'/branched out parts/songs of Metallica, the long bass solo, the acoustic parts, the instrumentals. The whole band worked on Fade to Black and Master of Puppets, so it's hard to tell what went on there - either way, Hammett at *most*, would have written his own solos but even that isn't certain.

I'm not trying to argue with you. I just want to show you (and maybe others), that Hammett is not the be all and end all of Metallica, that he really hasn't written that much material, almost certainly isn't responsible for harmony in Metallica and definitely wasn't the bringer of classical to metal. I don't have anything against Metallica - but I am simply judging impartially. Hetfield is one of my favourite rhythm guitarists, but Hammett really is nothing very special IMO.

[Seltzer]

Originally Posted by Crowquill

This would be a number of opinions argument, and this isn't some well they've sold lots of records to 12 year old rich kids argument, its about an actual guitar magazine so you can assume alot of them are guitar players and would be able to tell good guitar playing from bad guitar playing. You also have no way to judge if those opinions are informed or not. Your whole argument has been one big pile of elitist metal bullshit with 0 backing.

Bullsh1t, who said it even has anything to do with metal at all? Where have I mentioned any 'kult' metal bands? This is about Metallica.

Read my post again - who cares if they play guitar (ZOMG i play geetarz!)? Clearly they haven't heard a wide range of music - I'm not even going to comment again on the Simple Plan cover.

If you show those 4000 readers Circle Takes the Square and the majority think it is utterly atrocious, are you going to snap your CDs and be done with them?

The "this person says it's good so it must be good" argument is incredibly weak.

The IMO part about this post was kind of funny.

So what? I was just adding my own opinion to it. I didn't consider this an argument until you came in antagonizing me with untrue stuff; i.e. metal elitism. If you're going to be a prick, GTFO.

And since I didn't at the time consider this an argument, and seeing as it is the thread for Metallica discussion, I thought an opinion on Metallica might be appropriate.

[Seltzer]

Originally Posted by Crowquill

Because its the typical METALLICA SUX crap metal fans seem to constantly bring up?

Actually read my post properly. I like Metallica and I'm pretty sure I said that somewhere. I just DON'T THINK HAMMETT IS GREAT. noob.

I love Metallica.

I forgot the readers not the publishers pick the covers of the magazine, and did you not read my post? Most guitar players can tell a simple riff like Iron Man from some intricate solo.

I see - technicality is the most important thing now. But don't you understand that the publishers pick a cover because it either satisfies existing customers or attracts new ones - they do it because it works. So either way, some of the people who voted in the best guitarist poll would have agreed with that Simple Plan part - thus their credibility is invalidated.

See, you're using weak comparison to prove your point, that doesn't work.

How is it a weak comparison - I'm proving why the '4000 people say it is' argument doesn't work and is stupid.

No, 4000 people that are most likely all guitar players saying the guitaring is good, that isn't incredibly weak. Once again work on your comparisons.

How can those people judge Hammett in comparison to other guitarists when:

a.) Almost all of them don't realise that he didn't write all of his own solos. Even Big3 didn't realise, and he loves Metallica.

b.) They're clearly biased towards rock/metal.

c.) Most of them haven't heard much music, hence haven't heard many guitarists.

d.) Most people are fanboys - and seeing that Metallica is popular, probability says most will be Metallica fanboys. Guitar players or not, people suffer from fanboyism to varying degrees. It affects the ability to judge.

Just remember, it's a popularity poll.

Yeah but you're passing stuff off like "lars drumming is bland and cliche" and arguing it as fact, which is why I found the IMO part funny.

Where have I tried passing it off as fact - it's my opinion? It is an informed opinion, but an opinion nevertheless.

I was going to add "Ulrich is sh1t IMO", but he's not part of the Hammett debate now, so it's irrelevant.

[Seltzer]

My major point is that it is a popularity poll. Metallica is one of the most popular bands ever - therefore, of course more people are going to vote for Hammett and Hetfield as the best guitarists ever, even if they haven't heard many guitarists.

That is why you can't use that argument - some readers are ignorant compared to others whether it's due to lack of knowledge about what material Hammett writes, whether it's the number of guitarists they've heard, whether it's fanboyism etc....

Don't get me wrong that some of the readers would have voted impartially without fanboyism - but how can they make a fair judgement if they haven't heard many guitarists? It's almost a guarantee that every voter had heard Hammett, but has every voter heard Satriani, McLaughlin, Gilbert etc... clearly not.

Since Metallica is popular, Hammett is obviously going to get more votes than he would otherwise.

Originally Posted by Crowquill

Maybe you didn't read my post properly, did I say you hated Metallica? No I just think you're boasting the same 'typical METALLICA SUX crap metal fans seem to constantly bring up' in regards to their musicianship.

So I love Metallica, but go around saying "Metallica sux!".

Sorry, it's not true - you're going to have to take my word for it. But before I'm convicted of this crime, just show me where I've said Metallica sucks.

No, you're missing the point of what I say. I don't feel like getting into a non technical debate vs. technical debate. You take simplistic guitar lines vs. complex guitar lines, whos going to be considered the better guitarist?

I don't want to get into that debate either. But you are proving my point - people, more so guitarists will be biased towards complex guitar lines - hence people are going to be biased towards Hammett. He plays metal which involves complex lines.

So if you took 4000 people who don't listen to music and ask them to judge an album, and 4000 musicians whos opinion is going to hold more ground? Its about who the people are listening, yes it was a bad comparison.

Of course 4000 musicians is going to hold more ground, but I never claimed otherwise...

Yeah but are they talking about guitar playing or the actual music writing? While both are key parts in being a good guitarist, if its a top guitar player they're going to focus more on the former.

If it was guitar playing at stake here, then it would be almost factual. In other words, Hammett would be considered good for speed/technique etc, but he factually shouldn't be at the top. That would go to Petrucci/Malmsteen etc. if it wasn't accounting for songwriting.

Sadly enough, some people voting on that wouldn't have emphasized songwriting enough.

How do you know that? They're subscribing to a guitar magazine, I think they'd be music fans.

Of course they're music fans. But it's just statistics. It is clear that the majority of people don't listen to a lot of music. While guitarists listen to more than the average person, the majority don't listen to a lot, or a wide range.

Most people are content to listen to their favourite bands over and over again, every day. Some people prefer to discover new music all the time, hence they hear a lot more than just their favourite bands. Sad but statistically true.

Yeah, I know plenty of fanboys and most of them wouldn't say the guitarist of their favorite band is the best unless hes actually good.

Well fair enough, he might be good but either way, fanboys will blow it out of proportion.

Once again, thats the publishers not the readers.

Sorry, you must have posted before I added in this bit to my last post, so anyway:

But don't you understand that the publishers pick a cover because it either satisfies existing customers or attracts new ones - they do it because it works. So either way, some of the people who voted in the best guitarist poll would have agreed with that Simple Plan part - thus their credibility is invalidated.

Publishers deliver what readers want to hear, so we can assume there is a decent, marketably feasible number of readers who agree with this, even if they didn't write it.

Once again, read the post, arguing it like its fact.

No I'm not arguing it like it's fact. There are some factual statements and some opinionated statements when judging a drummer. Lars is sloppy live, that is factual. Lars sounds uninspired nowadays, that is opinion. Lars is factually not very technical. See what I'm getting at? Some parts are factual, some are opinion. I'm not arguing the opinion parts as fact, and I'm not arguing the overall opinion of Lars as fact. I don't need to follow every bit of opinion with 'IMO'.

[Seltzer]

Originally Posted by Crowquill

Do you honestly think all 4000 of those people were metallica fanboys who'd never heard another guitar player? Because thats pretty goddamn ignorant.

I never said all of them were. But can you please read this and actually think about it.

If you took 2 identical guitarists, identical in every way, except that one was in an underground band and practically unheard of, and the other was in the biggest metal band in the world, who would get more votes in a guitarist poll. BTW, they have different names.

Logic tells you that due to popularity, the more popular one would get more votes. Likewise, if Kirk Hammett wasn't in the biggest metal band ever, he wouldn't have got as many votes as he did.

Now a numerical explanation. 10% of people who have heard Hammett vote for him - 10,000 people have heard him - therefore 1000 votes. 50% of people who have heard Joe Satriani and Kirk Hammett vote for Joe Satriani - 1500 people have heard him - therefore 750 votes. Hammett wins due to popularity.

See what I mean? You have to bear in mind that this is a POPULARITY poll, and will be influenced by how many people have heard each guitarist. I'm not saying everyone who voted has only heard Kirk Hammett and no other guitarist... so don't try to twist my words like that. I'm saying Hammett = in popular band, so Hammett gets more votes than he otherwise would.

If you're not going to read the post just don't respond.

What is your problem? Unless you can show me where I've said Metallica sucks, then shut up. Stop wasting my time.

I like Metallica, stop trying to pull the 'metalhead criticism' card on me.

Which makes him a terrible guitarist m i rite!

Nope, not at all.

Didn't you just say the reason he beat petrucci and malmsteen was songwriting? and then you say the people voting didn't emphasize it enough...what?

Nope, you said that people are going to focus on guitar playing rather than technique if it's a guitar poll.

And I pointed out that if that was the case, Petrucci and Malmsteen would factually be superior in that respect to Hammett. Then I said it's sad that some people would have voted with that mentality.

I'd like to see some facts to back up guitarist don't listen to a lot of music, I mean if someone didn't like music I don't see why they'd start playing guitar.

Can you show these statistics?

Well, how am I meant to back that up? It's just what is obvious from living on Earth and talking to human beings. Most people tend to listen to their favourite bands a lot rather than exploring a lot of bands they haven't heard. Part of this is due to some people insisting on buying albums instead of downloading - obviously they can't check out as much new music as someone who downloads. Since musical taste isn't something that can be easily quantified, there probably aren't statistics.

Did you ever consider they're trying to appeal to more then just their readers? Most metallica fans aren't running around listening to simple plan.

Yes I did. If their readers at the time of the ad didn't agree with it, that advert will attract new readers who agree with it - hence some readers agree with it - thus their voting population is tainted.

[eddie1]

I liked the old metallica...

[TheBig3]

popularity does have a minor like with greatness. I don't think people ignore satriani because they can't hear him. In fact, the more he stays in the shadows the more votes he gets from Hamment/Metallica haters. Can you imagine how many votes he'd get if people actually heard Joe Satriani?

[Seltzer]

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog

popularity does have a minor like with greatness. I don't think people ignore satriani because they can't hear him. In fact, the more he stays in the shadows the more votes he gets from Hamment/Metallica haters. Can you imagine how many votes he'd get if people actually heard Joe Satriani?

I don't really understand your post.

Are you saying people vote for Satriani because he's not popular (even if they haven't heard him)? Because that's not true - that's elitism and doesn't happen a lot in this situation. I imagine he would get many more votes if many people heard him. You can't vote for that which you haven't heard.

BTW, there's a reply waiting in the Crowquill modship thread.

[QueenNothing]

Metallica is and will always remain a legend. You can either love em or hate em. Its all you.



Is you like them, isn;t that all that matters?







No matter what you like there will always be someone who doesn't.

Why argue with them?

[Seltzer]

Originally Posted by QueenNothing

Metallica is and will always remain a legend. You can either love em or hate em. Its all you.



Is you like them, isn;t that all that matters?


No matter what you like there will always be someone who doesn't.

Why argue with them?

I do like them. I just think that Hammett isn't that great and that Hetfield ****s over him.

It matters to me because I love music and I love discussing it.