The Official Black Sabbath Thread (lyrics, ambient, blues, bass)

[Dr_Rez]

I wasnt aware it takes tons of technical talent to be able to have a drum solo. Coming from a drumming background what he does on that track is hardly beginner stuff... Sure its not backing a jazz standard in 69/435 time but its pretty solid sounding and beyond a lot of rock drummers grasps. Keith Moon/Bohnum was hardly a very technically skilled drummer and he is certainly worthy of a solo.

To bring in jazz drumming as a comparison is rubbish. Whens the last time someone compared Hendrix to a jazz guitarist? Because that jazz musician knows how to play a Aminorflat5 in 10 spots instead of maybe 1 or 2 he is better?

[Dotoar]

Originally Posted by RezZ

I wasnt aware it takes tons of technical talent to be able to have a drum solo. Coming from a drumming background what he does on that track is hardly beginner stuff... Sure its not backing a jazz standard in 69/435 time but its pretty solid sounding and beyond a lot of rock drummers grasps. Keith Moon/Bohnum was hardly a very technically skilled drummer and he is certainly worthy of a solo.

To bring in jazz drumming as a comparison is rubbish. Whens the last time someone compared Hendrix to a jazz guitarist? Because that jazz musician knows how to play a Aminorflat5 in 10 spots instead of maybe 1 or 2 he is better?

Now you're reaching too far. First of all: I'm not comparing his drumming skills to Bonham/Moon or anyone, and I sure haven't brought in tricky time signatures, much less Hendrix vs. jazz guitarists, to the discussion. I'm talking about the displaying of drum solos in general and Ward's drum skills in relation to that.

Secondly, Bill Ward is a decent drummer but not a good soloist, and the things he does on "Rat salad" are average at best and not at all imaginative (there are very few 'official' drum solos that are, actually), and not even the most stubborn-minded Sabbath fanboy could argue with that. Apart from that track he does a fine job in drumming in what I consider to be one of the best metal bands ever, and he's definitely a part of their sound which happened to be quite revolutionary. (I somehow feel I gotta emphasize that I really like Sabbath here, but I'm not that close-minded that I cannot spot their obvious flaws either).

[Dr_Rez]

Originally Posted by Dotoar

Now you're reaching too far. First of all: I'm not comparing his drumming skills to Bonham/Moon or anyone, and I sure haven't brought in tricky time signatures, much less Hendrix vs. jazz guitarists, to the discussion. I'm talking about the displaying of drum solos in general and Ward's drum skills in relation to that.

Secondly, Bill Ward is a decent drummer but not a good soloist, and the things he does on "Rat salad" are average at best and not at all imaginative (there are very few 'official' drum solos that are, actually), and not even the most stubborn-minded Sabbath fanboy could argue with that. Apart from that track he does a fine job in drumming in what I consider to be one of the best metal bands ever, and he's definitely a part of their sound which happened to be quite revolutionary. (I somehow feel I gotta emphasize that I really like Sabbath here, but I'm not that close-minded that I cannot spot their obvious flaws either).

Perhaps I was reaching but I only reached to get across a point I was trying to make.

And I never said he was a great soloist, in fact I dont think anyone should/could/would. The thing is Sabbath's sound is based of very primal basic sounds. Iommi for instance was one of the few guitarists that never played anything shred style like most people in that time were starting to do. I feel like such a proficient technically gifted drummer would have offset that band and not fit in.

You are correct in that no, I dont think anyone would listen to Wards drum solo and be like damn one day im gona solo just like that.

[Dotoar]

Originally Posted by RezZ

Perhaps I was reaching but I only reached to get across a point I was trying to make.

And I never said he was a great soloist[...]

Which essentially was my only point.

Originally Posted by RezZ

The thing is Sabbath's sound is based of very primal basic sounds. Iommi for instance was one of the few guitarists that never played anything shred style like most people in that time were starting to do. I feel like such a proficient technically gifted drummer would have offset that band and not fit in.

I agree. Their strength didn't lie in virtuosic playing (even if I'd say that Iommi sure could pick up steam every now and then), but rather in proving that you can be inventive without technical proficiency.

[Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra]

Originally Posted by RezZ

I wasnt aware it takes tons of technical talent to be able to have a drum solo. Coming from a drumming background what he does on that track is hardly beginner stuff... Sure its not backing a jazz standard in 69/435 time but its pretty solid sounding and beyond a lot of rock drummers grasps. Keith Moon/Bohnum was hardly a very technically skilled drummer and he is certainly worthy of a solo.

To bring in jazz drumming as a comparison is rubbish. Whens the last time someone compared Hendrix to a jazz guitarist? Because that jazz musician knows how to play a Aminorflat5 in 10 spots instead of maybe 1 or 2 he is better?

Think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I was actually kind of making the point that the song was attempting to be slightly jazzy, and also basically said the same thing that you are saying here.