The Official Black Sabbath Thread (lyrics, ambient, blues, bass)

[Dotoar]

Originally Posted by Skaligojurah

Really?

Really. It's painfully obvious that they tried to emulate "Moby ****"/"Toad". Bill Ward is a decent drummer but a virtuoso worthy of his own solo spot he is not. And the riff is just blah.

Originally Posted by Kinda Blue

But I think you can add Changes from Volume 4 to your facepalm-list.

A lot of people seem to dislike "Changes". Well, it's not a masterpiece by any means but at least they tried to expand their formula. Maybe it's the mellotron that saves the day for me. Everything tastes better with mellotron.


(Moby ****, Moby ****, Moby ****, why can't I write Moby ****? We gladly send reinforcements to the mid-east to kill off citizens, but god forbid that someone happens upon an obscene word once in a while! Censorship is bull****!)

[Kinda Blue]

Originally Posted by Dotoar

Really. It's painfully obvious that they tried to emulate "Moby ****"/"Toad". Bill Ward is a decent drummer but a virtuoso worthy of his own solo spot he is not. And the riff is just blah.

This was what I thought too upon my first time hearing it.

[Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra]

Originally Posted by Dotoar

Really. It's painfully obvious that they tried to emulate "Moby ****"/"Toad". Bill Ward is a decent drummer but a virtuoso worthy of his own solo spot he is not. And the riff is just blah.

Well, to think that Led Zeppelin invented to drum solo(or anything...) is ludicrous. To be honest, Jazz drummers well pioneered the art before either Bill Ward or Jon Bonham ever hit the scene. In fact, compared to a really good jazz drummer even Bonham falls very very short.

As for the drum solo, it's short, and it's very fun to listen to. It's not like he's whipping out a 20 minute Deep Purple-escue extended solo. Honestly, I don't think it sounds that bad, and it seems to be well transposed into the song, I could care less if he's virtuoso, or how he stacks against other drummers.

Honestly, I see Rat Salad as less of an attempt to imitate Moby ****, and more of an attempt to emulate the vastly popular jazz-fusion sound at the time, and to be honest, unlike most emulations, it does a decent job of keeping the tone that Black Sabbath established.

Sabbath I think experimented much more than they're given credit for, and I'd consider Rat Salad one of the few successes from that experimentation. I mean, it's a B-side, and it's one where they're actually taking a risk not playing it safe with in the boundaries of the sound they invented, and were the only figments of at the time. After all, nothing about Sabbath was about virtuosity, it was all about creativity.

I mean, at least it wasn't the ten thousand of ****ty ballad songs they did. Apart from Planet Caravan, were all terrible.

[Dotoar]

Originally Posted by Skaligojurah

Well, to think that Led Zeppelin invented to drum solo(or anything...) is ludicrous. To be honest, Jazz drummers well pioneered the art before either Bill Ward or Jon Bonham ever hit the scene. In fact, compared to a really good jazz drummer even Bonham falls very very short.

As for the drum solo, it's short, and it's very fun to listen to. It's not like he's whipping out a 20 minute Deep Purple-escue extended solo. Honestly, I don't think it sounds that bad, and it seems to be well transposed into the song, I could care less if he's virtuoso, or how he stacks against other drummers.

Honestly, I see Rat Salad as less of an attempt to imitate Moby ****, and more of an attempt to emulate the vastly popular jazz-fusion sound at the time, and to be honest, unlike most emulations, it does a decent job of keeping the tone that Black Sabbath established.

Sabbath I think experimented much more than they're given credit for, and I'd consider Rat Salad one of the few successes from that experimentation. I mean, it's a B-side, and it's one where they're actually taking a risk not playing it safe with in the boundaries of the sound they invented, and were the only figments of at the time. After all, nothing about Sabbath was about virtuosity, it was all about creativity.

I mean, at least it wasn't the ten thousand of ****ty ballad songs they did. Apart from Planet Caravan, were all terrible.

Cool it down, I never claimed Zeppelin to be pioneers of drum solos, and frankly, I don't think that "Moby ****" is that great either. Or Cream's "Toad" for that matter. I just don't think that Ward has the chops to make justice of a worthy drum solo. Deep Purple, for instance, at least had the sensibility to save that kind of stuff for the live shows (not to mention that Ian Paice is a much more skilled drummer). Besides, I don't even feel much invention in the track, even for Sabbath, considering that the times more or less called for an obligatory drum solo in the backpack.

I do agree though, that ballads were not their forte, and their (relative) experimentation never really took off until "Sabbath bloody sabbath".