The Official Black Sabbath Thread

[Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra]

Originally Posted by Dotoar

Facepalm: "Rat salad",

Really?

[Dotoar]

Originally Posted by Skaligojurah

Really?

Really. It's painfully obvious that they tried to emulate "Moby ****"/"Toad". Bill Ward is a decent drummer but a virtuoso worthy of his own solo spot he is not. And the riff is just blah.

Originally Posted by Kinda Blue

But I think you can add Changes from Volume 4 to your facepalm-list.

A lot of people seem to dislike "Changes". Well, it's not a masterpiece by any means but at least they tried to expand their formula. Maybe it's the mellotron that saves the day for me. Everything tastes better with mellotron.


(Moby ****, Moby ****, Moby ****, why can't I write Moby ****? We gladly send reinforcements to the mid-east to kill off citizens, but god forbid that someone happens upon an obscene word once in a while! Censorship is bull****!)

[Dr_Rez]

Originally Posted by Skaligojurah

Really?

Agreed I think its a great song on a great album. Live its fantastic as well. The crowd went nuts when it begun.

[Kinda Blue]

Originally Posted by Dotoar

Really. It's painfully obvious that they tried to emulate "Moby ****"/"Toad". Bill Ward is a decent drummer but a virtuoso worthy of his own solo spot he is not. And the riff is just blah.

This was what I thought too upon my first time hearing it.

[Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra]

Originally Posted by Dotoar

Really. It's painfully obvious that they tried to emulate "Moby ****"/"Toad". Bill Ward is a decent drummer but a virtuoso worthy of his own solo spot he is not. And the riff is just blah.

Well, to think that Led Zeppelin invented to drum solo(or anything...) is ludicrous. To be honest, Jazz drummers well pioneered the art before either Bill Ward or Jon Bonham ever hit the scene. In fact, compared to a really good jazz drummer even Bonham falls very very short.

As for the drum solo, it's short, and it's very fun to listen to. It's not like he's whipping out a 20 minute Deep Purple-escue extended solo. Honestly, I don't think it sounds that bad, and it seems to be well transposed into the song, I could care less if he's virtuoso, or how he stacks against other drummers.

Honestly, I see Rat Salad as less of an attempt to imitate Moby ****, and more of an attempt to emulate the vastly popular jazz-fusion sound at the time, and to be honest, unlike most emulations, it does a decent job of keeping the tone that Black Sabbath established.

Sabbath I think experimented much more than they're given credit for, and I'd consider Rat Salad one of the few successes from that experimentation. I mean, it's a B-side, and it's one where they're actually taking a risk not playing it safe with in the boundaries of the sound they invented, and were the only figments of at the time. After all, nothing about Sabbath was about virtuosity, it was all about creativity.

I mean, at least it wasn't the ten thousand of ****ty ballad songs they did. Apart from Planet Caravan, were all terrible.

[Dotoar]

Originally Posted by Skaligojurah

Well, to think that Led Zeppelin invented to drum solo(or anything...) is ludicrous. To be honest, Jazz drummers well pioneered the art before either Bill Ward or Jon Bonham ever hit the scene. In fact, compared to a really good jazz drummer even Bonham falls very very short.

As for the drum solo, it's short, and it's very fun to listen to. It's not like he's whipping out a 20 minute Deep Purple-escue extended solo. Honestly, I don't think it sounds that bad, and it seems to be well transposed into the song, I could care less if he's virtuoso, or how he stacks against other drummers.

Honestly, I see Rat Salad as less of an attempt to imitate Moby ****, and more of an attempt to emulate the vastly popular jazz-fusion sound at the time, and to be honest, unlike most emulations, it does a decent job of keeping the tone that Black Sabbath established.

Sabbath I think experimented much more than they're given credit for, and I'd consider Rat Salad one of the few successes from that experimentation. I mean, it's a B-side, and it's one where they're actually taking a risk not playing it safe with in the boundaries of the sound they invented, and were the only figments of at the time. After all, nothing about Sabbath was about virtuosity, it was all about creativity.

I mean, at least it wasn't the ten thousand of ****ty ballad songs they did. Apart from Planet Caravan, were all terrible.

Cool it down, I never claimed Zeppelin to be pioneers of drum solos, and frankly, I don't think that "Moby ****" is that great either. Or Cream's "Toad" for that matter. I just don't think that Ward has the chops to make justice of a worthy drum solo. Deep Purple, for instance, at least had the sensibility to save that kind of stuff for the live shows (not to mention that Ian Paice is a much more skilled drummer). Besides, I don't even feel much invention in the track, even for Sabbath, considering that the times more or less called for an obligatory drum solo in the backpack.

I do agree though, that ballads were not their forte, and their (relative) experimentation never really took off until "Sabbath bloody sabbath".

[Dr_Rez]

I wasnt aware it takes tons of technical talent to be able to have a drum solo. Coming from a drumming background what he does on that track is hardly beginner stuff... Sure its not backing a jazz standard in 69/435 time but its pretty solid sounding and beyond a lot of rock drummers grasps. Keith Moon/Bohnum was hardly a very technically skilled drummer and he is certainly worthy of a solo.

To bring in jazz drumming as a comparison is rubbish. Whens the last time someone compared Hendrix to a jazz guitarist? Because that jazz musician knows how to play a Aminorflat5 in 10 spots instead of maybe 1 or 2 he is better?

[Dotoar]

Originally Posted by RezZ

I wasnt aware it takes tons of technical talent to be able to have a drum solo. Coming from a drumming background what he does on that track is hardly beginner stuff... Sure its not backing a jazz standard in 69/435 time but its pretty solid sounding and beyond a lot of rock drummers grasps. Keith Moon/Bohnum was hardly a very technically skilled drummer and he is certainly worthy of a solo.

To bring in jazz drumming as a comparison is rubbish. Whens the last time someone compared Hendrix to a jazz guitarist? Because that jazz musician knows how to play a Aminorflat5 in 10 spots instead of maybe 1 or 2 he is better?

Now you're reaching too far. First of all: I'm not comparing his drumming skills to Bonham/Moon or anyone, and I sure haven't brought in tricky time signatures, much less Hendrix vs. jazz guitarists, to the discussion. I'm talking about the displaying of drum solos in general and Ward's drum skills in relation to that.

Secondly, Bill Ward is a decent drummer but not a good soloist, and the things he does on "Rat salad" are average at best and not at all imaginative (there are very few 'official' drum solos that are, actually), and not even the most stubborn-minded Sabbath fanboy could argue with that. Apart from that track he does a fine job in drumming in what I consider to be one of the best metal bands ever, and he's definitely a part of their sound which happened to be quite revolutionary. (I somehow feel I gotta emphasize that I really like Sabbath here, but I'm not that close-minded that I cannot spot their obvious flaws either).

[Dr_Rez]

Originally Posted by Dotoar

Now you're reaching too far. First of all: I'm not comparing his drumming skills to Bonham/Moon or anyone, and I sure haven't brought in tricky time signatures, much less Hendrix vs. jazz guitarists, to the discussion. I'm talking about the displaying of drum solos in general and Ward's drum skills in relation to that.

Secondly, Bill Ward is a decent drummer but not a good soloist, and the things he does on "Rat salad" are average at best and not at all imaginative (there are very few 'official' drum solos that are, actually), and not even the most stubborn-minded Sabbath fanboy could argue with that. Apart from that track he does a fine job in drumming in what I consider to be one of the best metal bands ever, and he's definitely a part of their sound which happened to be quite revolutionary. (I somehow feel I gotta emphasize that I really like Sabbath here, but I'm not that close-minded that I cannot spot their obvious flaws either).

Perhaps I was reaching but I only reached to get across a point I was trying to make.

And I never said he was a great soloist, in fact I dont think anyone should/could/would. The thing is Sabbath's sound is based of very primal basic sounds. Iommi for instance was one of the few guitarists that never played anything shred style like most people in that time were starting to do. I feel like such a proficient technically gifted drummer would have offset that band and not fit in.

You are correct in that no, I dont think anyone would listen to Wards drum solo and be like damn one day im gona solo just like that.

[Urban Hat€monger ?]

I don't know why Rat Salad is getting so much hate.

Especially as that album has one of the most boring 'classics' they ever recorded in War Pigs.