How many genres? (lyrics, singer, alternative, blues, dance)

jackhammer · 08-14-2007, 06:24 PM

Some background:

I have been a metal fan since 1986, after being hypnotised by IRON MAIDEN : LIVE AFTER DEATH. After being in the scene for a while, I noticed the many sub genres of metal, and found a fair amount of narrow mindedness. EG I liked PINK FLOYD (not heavy-but they are a rock band), but my METAL friends constantly took the rise as FLOYD were not deemed heavy enough. I eventually tired of this ; and although I kept listening to my metal music, I pretty much left the scene (circa 1992-2000).

Upon slowly integrating myself back in the scene, I was shocked to find that the sub-genres had increased threefold. Now I don't know what band is classed as what. This f[u]cks me off. The metal scene has to be one of the most pretentious scenes ever. Now before I get ****-I LOVE metal, it has shaped my life, and has lead me to my current situation as a father. HOWEVER there seems to be a constant need to categorise a band. The only other genre that has this is DANCE. Hmmm-both loved by under 25's. Not exclusively; but primarily.

Why are there so many sub genres in Metal? Indie is Indie at the end of the day, Reggae is Reggae etc.

I absolutely hated genre tags when I was younger, and I am utterly dismayed to find that the genre tags have got wider!

Guess what though-to the outsider, it's still metal. We seem to have an overwhelming obsession to categorise music, to associate ourselves with a certain form, and look down with disdain at other forms of metal.

I am not saying that we dont need categorys, but why so many? It seems like it's an unconcious effort to create something new.

A band like LAMB OF GOD are considered Metalcore. This tag gives me a generic make up of Metal and Hardcore. If that is correct, then METALLICA are Metalcore, they basically fused DIAMOND HEAD with DISCHARGE, but they are thrash!

I would love it for metal fans to stop being so precious about their tags, because in 10 years it does'nt matter. If you like what you are listening to, then that is the only tag you need.

(I know I'm going to get crap for this but hey!).

Muzak · 08-14-2007, 06:39 PM

A band like LAMB OF GOD are considered Metalcore. This tag gives me a generic make up of Metal and Hardcore. If that is correct, then METALLICA are Metalcore, they basically fused DIAMOND HEAD with DISCHARGE, but they are thrash!

Lamb of God combines modern hardcore (far different then the OGs) with groove thrash tendencies.

Metallica first was a combination of as you said Diamond Head (NWOBHM, Aka classic rock/punk drumming, blues and classic influences, a higher pitched singer) and Discharge (classic hardcore punk) which makes them thrash. Thrash is, in its crudest form, a combination of traditional metal (like NWOBHM) complexity in the music, with the aggression, and heavy distortion of original hardcore punk.

I personally find it best to use as many genre tags as I can when describing a band. I don't know why but it makes feel like I can identify them more than just throwing a general tag on them and forget everything.

jackhammer · 08-14-2007, 06:58 PM

See I cannot here any GROOVE whatsoever in LAMB OF GOD. Groove is derived from soul/funk/ reggae and blues and I cannot hear any of this in their music.

I know what Metallica are, that's why they are thrash-a literal translation of thrashing genres.

When I describe a band, I prefer to use as few genre tags as I can.

Keep posting though, I want this one to run, as there are no definitive answers.

Muzak · 08-14-2007, 07:19 PM

The groove comes from the Pantera, my friend. As they are one of the more well known metal bands, and the bringer of groove thrash. This mostly influenced many groove based 'metal' bands (Nu Metal, Devildriver, Modern Hardcore in some aspects). Lamb of God is one that really based their style on the Pantera worship more than the scene metalcore of today. Some say they are more of a post thrash influence (see Meshugga and Byzantine).

Also, 10 years ago, most metal genres that existed (that most knew about, Black Metal and Death Metal are different cases) were very similar to each other. Speed Metal, Thrash Metal, NWOBHM, even Power Metal at the time were all closely related in sound in some way or anther. In this day and age, the genre tree has branched so far and made such diverse styles that many see heavy use of genre tagging as a way to keep the metal umbrella from being meshed into chaos.

For instance, Kamelot's The Haunting sounds nothing like Wormed's Tunnel of Ions yet they are both metal.

I agree that many might abuse the genre system of metal or use it incorrectly but I think that with the type of genre metal is, the genre tags are needed.

jackhammer · 08-14-2007, 07:30 PM

I still am not getting this Groove tag. I have heard a couple of Pantera tracks (which I did'nt like), so if they instigated it, then they have used a blues based influence for their groove, which then brings the genre full circle!

--For instance, Kamelot's The Haunting sounds nothing like Wormed's Tunnel of Ions yet they are both metal.---

I have'nt heard either track. I would appreciate some up's!

--(that most knew about, Black Metal and Death Metal are different cases)--

why are they different? Black Metal was primarily a theme based music I.E iconography, lyrics etc and Death Metal was Thrash relieved of it's punk roots and a metal progression of prog influences.

Muzak · 08-14-2007, 08:03 PM

because both genres were extremely underground at that time and not many people knew of them in their growing days. I wont deny that they are very unique sounding genres, its that they were still very obscure at that time.

for the songs, I cant upload them now but I can provide alternative means of listening to them

YouTube - KAMELOT - The Haunting
MySpace.com - WORMED - ES - Death Metal / Experimental / Metal - www.myspace.com/wormed

jackhammer · 08-15-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muzak

for the songs, I cant upload them now but I can provide alternative means of listening to them

YouTube - KAMELOT - The Haunting
MySpace.com - WORMED - ES - Death Metal / Experimental / Metal - www.myspace.com/wormed

thanks for the links

Kamelot-talk about cheese! That was awful commercial twaddle.

Wormed-give me Carcass anyday!

You see I would'nt call Kamelot (sic) metal at all. Just commercial rock.

joyboyo53 · 08-14-2007, 09:44 PM

i hear you jackhammer. as i have said before "genres lead to ignorance". although i see the advantage of genres from time to time, in general they tend to just make people closeminded to something. i just like music

Seltzer · 08-15-2007, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgd85

i hear you jackhammer. as i have said before "genres lead to ignorance". although i see the advantage of genres from time to time, in general they tend to just make people closeminded to something. i just like music

Well to be honest, I see that as their loss and not as a reason to eschew subgenres. I listen to a HELL of a lot of music but I think subgenres are useful. My metal folder on my computer is divided into:

Black
Death
Doom/Gothic
Folk/Viking
Heavy/Alt
Industrial
Metalcore/Nu
Power/Symphonic
Prog/Experimental
Thrash

Post-metal goes into my post rock/metal folder which is given equal status with rock, metal, jazz etc.

I do break some subgenres up further - death is broken up into blackened, melodic, technical and brutal/grind. Notice that melodic death is actually a subgenre of death, whereas blackened death is a combination of black and death (bands like Behemoth, Abominator etc.).

But before anyone goes ahead and says that's ridiculous, they have to remember it's not ridiculous to someone who knows these genres well, and has 170 GB of metal alone. A stoner doom band is a universe away from a funeral doom band.

Sound Devastation · 08-15-2007, 06:55 AM

^^ agreed. i only have about 30gb of mp3s at the mo, divided into:

post-rock & shoegaze
indie & folk
avant-garde & noise
black & doom
crust & grind
sludge & post-metal
emo & post-hardcore
SD releases

Genres only couse problems when people dont know what they're talking about.

08-14-2007, 06:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
jackhammer Ba and Be. Join Date: May 2007 Location: This Is England Posts: 17,331	How many genres? Some background: I have been a metal fan since 1986, after being hypnotised by IRON MAIDEN : LIVE AFTER DEATH. After being in the scene for a while, I noticed the many sub genres of metal, and found a fair amount of narrow mindedness. EG I liked PINK FLOYD (not heavy-but they are a rock band), but my METAL friends constantly took the rise as FLOYD were not deemed heavy enough. I eventually tired of this ; and although I kept listening to my metal music, I pretty much left the scene (circa 1992-2000). Upon slowly integrating myself back in the scene, I was shocked to find that the sub-genres had increased threefold. Now I don't know what band is classed as what. This f[u]cks me off. The metal scene has to be one of the most pretentious scenes ever. Now before I get ***-I LOVE metal, it has shaped my life, and has lead me to my current situation as a father. HOWEVER there seems to be a constant need to categorise a band. The only other genre that has this is DANCE. Hmmm-both loved by under 25's. Not exclusively; but primarily. Why are there so many sub genres in Metal? Indie is Indie at the end of the day, Reggae is Reggae etc. I absolutely hated genre tags when I was younger, and I am utterly dismayed to find that the genre tags have got wider! Guess what though-to the outsider, it's still metal. We seem to have an overwhelming obsession to categorise music, to associate ourselves with a certain form, and look down with disdain at other forms of metal. I am not saying that we dont need categorys, but why so many? It seems like it's an unconcious effort to create something new. A band like LAMB OF GOD are considered Metalcore. This tag gives me a generic make up of Metal and Hardcore. If that is correct, then METALLICA are Metalcore, they basically fused DIAMOND HEAD with DISCHARGE, but they are thrash! I would love it for metal fans to stop being so precious about their tags, because in 10 years it does'nt matter. If you like what you are listening to, then that is the only tag you need. (I know I'm going to get crap for this but hey!). __________________ It be my music and film collection. “A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.” Last edited by jackhammer; 08-14-2007 at 06:34 PM.*

08-14-2007, 06:58 PM	#3 (permalink)
jackhammer Ba and Be. Join Date: May 2007 Location: This Is England Posts: 17,331	See I cannot here any GROOVE whatsoever in LAMB OF GOD. Groove is derived from soul/funk/ reggae and blues and I cannot hear any of this in their music. I know what Metallica are, that's why they are thrash-a literal translation of thrashing genres. When I describe a band, I prefer to use as few genre tags as I can. Keep posting though, I want this one to run, as there are no definitive answers. __________________ It be my music and film collection. “A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.”

08-14-2007, 07:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
jackhammer Ba and Be. Join Date: May 2007 Location: This Is England Posts: 17,331	I still am not getting this Groove tag. I have heard a couple of Pantera tracks (which I did'nt like), so if they instigated it, then they have used a blues based influence for their groove, which then brings the genre full circle! --For instance, Kamelot's The Haunting sounds nothing like Wormed's Tunnel of Ions yet they are both metal.--- I have'nt heard either track. I would appreciate some up's! --(that most knew about, Black Metal and Death Metal are different cases)-- why are they different? Black Metal was primarily a theme based music I.E iconography, lyrics etc and Death Metal was Thrash relieved of it's punk roots and a metal progression of prog influences. __________________ It be my music and film collection. “A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.”

08-15-2007, 06:55 AM	#10 (permalink)
Sound Devastation Music Addict Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 728	^^ agreed. i only have about 30gb of mp3s at the mo, divided into: post-rock & shoegaze indie & folk avant-garde & noise black & doom crust & grind sludge & post-metal emo & post-hardcore SD releases Genres only couse problems when people dont know what they're talking about. __________________ Out soon... AMENRA - Mass III 2xLP [stunning vinyl release of the belgian sludgecore giants epic 06 album] FALL OF EFRAFA - Owsla & Elil CD&LP [British crust/doom/post-metal band Fall of Efrafa deliver part two (Elil) on their dark conceptual trilogy. Part one (Owsla) will also be re-released for the first time in the UK] *** visit... Sound Devastation Records website**

08-14-2007, 06:39 PM	#2 (permalink)
Muzak Music Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,040	A band like LAMB OF GOD are considered Metalcore. This tag gives me a generic make up of Metal and Hardcore. If that is correct, then METALLICA are Metalcore, they basically fused DIAMOND HEAD with DISCHARGE, but they are thrash! Lamb of God combines modern hardcore (far different then the OGs) with groove thrash tendencies. Metallica first was a combination of as you said Diamond Head (NWOBHM, Aka classic rock/punk drumming, blues and classic influences, a higher pitched singer) and Discharge (classic hardcore punk) which makes them thrash. Thrash is, in its crudest form, a combination of traditional metal (like NWOBHM) complexity in the music, with the aggression, and heavy distortion of original hardcore punk. I personally find it best to use as many genre tags as I can when describing a band. I don't know why but it makes feel like I can identify them more than just throwing a general tag on them and forget everything.

08-14-2007, 07:19 PM	#4 (permalink)
Muzak Music Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,040	The groove comes from the Pantera, my friend. As they are one of the more well known metal bands, and the bringer of groove thrash. This mostly influenced many groove based 'metal' bands (Nu Metal, Devildriver, Modern Hardcore in some aspects). Lamb of God is one that really based their style on the Pantera worship more than the scene metalcore of today. Some say they are more of a post thrash influence (see Meshugga and Byzantine). Also, 10 years ago, most metal genres that existed (that most knew about, Black Metal and Death Metal are different cases) were very similar to each other. Speed Metal, Thrash Metal, NWOBHM, even Power Metal at the time were all closely related in sound in some way or anther. In this day and age, the genre tree has branched so far and made such diverse styles that many see heavy use of genre tagging as a way to keep the metal umbrella from being meshed into chaos. For instance, Kamelot's The Haunting sounds nothing like Wormed's Tunnel of Ions yet they are both metal. I agree that many might abuse the genre system of metal or use it incorrectly but I think that with the type of genre metal is, the genre tags are needed.

08-14-2007, 08:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
Muzak Music Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,040	because both genres were extremely underground at that time and not many people knew of them in their growing days. I wont deny that they are very unique sounding genres, its that they were still very obscure at that time. for the songs, I cant upload them now but I can provide alternative means of listening to them YouTube - KAMELOT - The Haunting MySpace.com - WORMED - ES - Death Metal / Experimental / Metal - www.myspace.com/wormed

08-14-2007, 09:44 PM	#8 (permalink)
joyboyo53 down the rabbit hole Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: the mountain called monkey Posts: 764	i hear you jackhammer. as i have said before "genres lead to ignorance". although i see the advantage of genres from time to time, in general they tend to just make people closeminded to something. i just like music