Trying to Find Non-Satanic Rock (alternative, Genesis, Westlife, member)

beat yr own KID · 04-17-2007, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Chile

No. How am I supposed to know if there are invisible monkeys dragging us down or not? To me, that's no more far-fetched than the theory of gravity.

lmao no it's not.

Voodoo Chile · 04-17-2007, 08:04 PM

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Originally Posted by beat yr own KID

lmao no it's not.

You must've missed two key words in that last sentence. Very convincing argument, by the way.

Quote:

well, absolute skepticism is all nice and dandy, and i agree with you that absolute truth is unattainable, but eventually you have to accept that scientific concepts are, if not "true," at least applicable, to make any sort of technological advancement

Yeah, you're right, and I do accept that. I'm open to the possibility that nothing really exists, or that everything isn't quite how we see it or think it is, but I kind of just have to go through each day as if everything does exist. Otherwise I'd be laying around on the floor shitting and pissing myself until I die.

~~The Unfan~~ · 04-17-2007, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snickers

How about this: ignorant teenage boy with tons of bravado preaching about the non-existence of God on an internet forum to show credibility for his cynical "free-thinking, wanna be new age revolutionary" theories contradicting any study of theology ever conducted in the past two millenia.

Well hello to you too, good friend. How has your day been?

riseagainstrocks · 04-19-2007, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Unfan

The problem is I didn't assume they applied to him, I just assumed that they exist. If there is "time" than there is a "next" and vice versa. Since we don't do everything at once it is apparent that there is a next meaning that things happen chronologically and that time very well exists. Now lets introduce a being into the structure that doesn't operate by these principles while the rest of things do. This being is all powerful, all knowing, and somehow exists in all periods of time and all moments at once. Since he has knowledge of all moments ever that means everything is predetermined. If it is predetermined than he can't change his mind because that would mean he lacks knowledge, and thus isn't all knowing. On the other hand he can't change his mind and therefore lacks a power and thus isn't all powerful.

It also means you can't choose to make an action that isn't the action of the current moment known to and existed in by "God." You can't make a decision about the next moment that is a different decision than the decision that you have decided to make about the next moment in this moment. This in and of itself isn't exactly a contradiction, however the Christian deity supposedly granted us free will, which makes no sense under these condition.

Contradiction number two is that to be perfect he has to be all powerful. However, there is no way for him to handle powers that are in direct contradiction with themselves rationally. Can God make an immovable object and lift it? If he can than he can't lift it and thus doesn't have a power. If he can't than he doesn't have a power. If he can make an immovable object and then later makes it movable to move it than it still doesn't prove that he can move an immovable object. Being all powerful simply makes no sense. There is no rational reason to believe anything can be all powerful, and thus there is no reason that anything is capable of being perfect.

Lastly, a perfect being would only encompass positive traits. He would have no negative traits and thus would have no rational reason to make the universe. He would never be unsatisfied, bored, or feeling needy and thus would never feel a reason to create the world. Of course he could have felt "love" for the universe and then made it, however this means he would have to imagine it first. God would never spend time imagining things because he would always feel satisfied and thus would never want to use his imagination. Think about it. When you're done with eating dinner and you're already full do you go get another plateful? Of course not, because you're full and don't feel the need or the want to. Likewise God would always be satisfied with what he has and never need to imagine new things. A perfect being wouldn't create the universe simply because he wouldn't feel the need or the want to.

So in conclusion: There is no logical reason to believe in a perfect being because it is silly. There is no logical reason to believe that a perfect being would create the universe. Lastly, if you still manage to uphold such silly beliefs than you have no reason to believe you have free will.

1. Time is infinite. Therefore you cannot measure time, due to there being nothing to compare it to. So the concept of "next" even for humans is faulty to begin with, as is the concept of time. Time exists soley as a means of control (read anything by Jeremy Rifkin)

2. Having no knowledge of the pre-ordained allows free will to exist. There is an important difference between a diety (one who by definition is supernatural) and a human. Our lack of future knowledge grants US the conditions of free will, not the diety.

3. This is the one question I can't wrap my head around. The moment I do I'll be sure to tell you

4. This is what I don't understand with atheist. We are debating the nature of the SUPERNATURAL. Our definition of perfect can only exist as a definition. To put perfection in practice would be supernatural. We can't concieve of it, nor define it. I'd refer to Kant's idea of the phenomenal and nomenal (i mispelled those) worlds. Ideas as we can concieve can exist in this world. But not the pure form of the idea.

I'm sorry I came in late on this, my internet has been down. I always miss the good discussions

AND METAL IS SERIOUS BUISNESS

riseagainstrocks · 04-19-2007, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Unfan

CAPTAIN AWESOME THE MIGHTIEST SUPER HERO EVER WILL SAVE THE DAY.

Are you known as scum on another message board? (I ask because of your user title)

riseagainstrocks · 04-19-2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Chile

Science is only right until it's proven wrong years later. It was once a "scientific fact" that the Earth was flat and that the sun revolved around it. Sounds pretty stupid now, doesn't it? And a hundred years from now, people are going to look back at our "scientific facts" and think that we were idiots for ever believing them. So really, science may as well be a religion. You're putting your faith in a mere human in a lab coat. A scientific test doesn't conclusively prove anything, it's just a theory that'll most likely be "disproven" later on by another theory, which'll be "disproven" later on by another theory, and so on. Science, religion, it's all just theories.

It wasn't a scientific fact. The scientific method wasn't applied to these things.

What's your alternative to this apparantly misplaced faith in science? Thing that rain is angels crying? Spontaneous genesis?

I would say that science has aspects of a religion while not being one itself. Soley because all religions have a belief in the supernatural (of something, not neccessarily a diety) whereas science seeks to remove the prescence of a diety in everything.

~~The Unfan~~ · 04-19-2007, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Are you known as scum on another message board? (I ask because of your user title)

Nope, though oddly enough I've used Atheist Scum on a few back in 04-ish.

shiftael · 04-19-2007, 09:12 PM

hmm but what does any of this have to do with the original post of the topic? oh there was a topic? O Rly? YA RLY

frogs007 · 11-15-2007, 11:56 PM

hey, welcome into the club. Me too got basically the same problem. Love rock but all those satanic stuff is against my morals. Try McFly, they're a bit for teens but I like them quite very much, Westlife (alternative rock) and maybe Evanescense and Tokyo Hotel

sleepy jack · 11-16-2007, 12:07 AM

I keep forgetting how big a problem satanism in rock is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

He is, but then again, Hitler called himself a Christian so that doesn't say much.

Okay I realize this is an old post but i'm reading through this thread and did you seriously just compare Tom Araya to Hitler?

04-19-2007, 09:12 PM	#158 (permalink)
shiftael Music Addict Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 390	hmm but what does any of this have to do with the original post of the topic? oh there was a topic? O Rly? YA RLY

11-15-2007, 11:56 PM	#159 (permalink)
frogs007 Groupie Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1	hey, welcome into the club. Me too got basically the same problem. Love rock but all those satanic stuff is against my morals. Try McFly, they're a bit for teens but I like them quite very much, Westlife (alternative rock) and maybe Evanescense and Tokyo Hotel