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-   -   Rock/Metal/Prog Education Thread (https://www.musicbanter.com/rock-metal/21292-rock-metal-prog-education-thread.html)

Thumpalumpacus 03-05-2010 03:09 AM

Rush has an excellent example of proto-thrash on "The Necromancer", off of 1975's Caress of Steel, complete with ape**** drums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uknown Soldier
Both Kurt Cobain and Eric Vedder have a lot to answer for, because everybody in these bands seems to sing like them.

I'm pretty sure you mean Eddie Vedder. That said, Soundgarden is the grunge band commanding my attention. There was lightning in a bottle.

Unknown Soldier 03-05-2010 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus (Post 833790)
Rush has an excellent example of proto-thrash on "The Necromancer", off of 1975's Caress of Steel, complete with ape**** drums.



I'm pretty sure you mean Eddie Vedder. That said, Soundgarden is the grunge band commanding my attention. There was lightning in a bottle.

You`re right, I`m not sure where I got Eric from:confused:

I never mentioned Chris Cornell, because his voice is kind of more unique due to its powerful wailing sound and probably harder to copy.

scottsy 03-06-2010 09:46 AM

Maybe Eric Vedder is really Eddie's little bro...

Unknown Soldier 03-06-2010 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottsy (Post 834132)
Maybe Eric Vedder is really Eddie's little bro...

I frequently get names wrong..........its often gotten me into trouble when it concerns females.

scottsy 03-06-2010 04:32 PM

Oh, yeah, big problem there where women are concerned, especially if things go all the way, if ya catch my drift... hehehehehe!

Unknown Soldier 03-06-2010 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottsy (Post 834217)
Oh, yeah, big problem there where women are concerned, especially if things go all the way, if ya catch my drift... hehehehehe!

That`s exactly when it has happened to me and I was never forgiven for it.

scottsy 03-06-2010 04:45 PM

Ouch... dude, sorry to hear that... nevermind, if she didn't accept your explanation, she probably wasn't worth it!

Unknown Soldier 03-06-2010 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottsy (Post 834221)
Ouch... dude, sorry to hear that... nevermind, if she didn't accept your explanation, she probably wasn't worth it!

It was a long time ago now and something from my past, anyway we should be talking about music here and not my misdeeds.

Talking of recommendations and you typing the word "nevermind" it ocurred to me, I`ve never heard anybody mention the group Nevermore. For me one of the best metal groups around and a great group to listen to for somebody wanting to get into metal.

scottsy 03-06-2010 06:07 PM

I've heard of Nevermore, yet don't have any of their stuff, and probably don't know any of their songs / albums... if anyone wanted to educate me I'd gladly take an upload...

Unknown Soldier 03-07-2010 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottsy (Post 834245)
I've heard of Nevermore, yet don't have any of their stuff, and probably don't know any of their songs / albums... if anyone wanted to educate me I'd gladly take an upload...

I haven`t got any Nevermore to hand at this moment but the two albums that I strongly recommend are the "Politics of Ecstasy" and the superb "Dreaming Neon Black"

zeppy111 03-07-2010 07:25 AM

Nevermore is the group Jeff Loomis was/is with right?

Unknown Soldier 03-07-2010 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeppy111 (Post 834380)
Nevermore is the group Jeff Loomis was/is with right?

That`s correct and he still is.

zeppy111 03-07-2010 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier (Post 834381)
That`s correct and he still is.

He is a good guitarist, quite a tosser though.

I watched one of his instructional dvd's that a friend lent me and he came across as everything I hate about metal, reminded me of Dream Theatre. Yet the Nevermore album I have and his solo album (zero order phase) were rather decent.

scottsy 03-07-2010 10:05 AM

Ah yes, being a good musician certainly doesn't dismiss you from the realm of tosser - dom!

Unknown Soldier 03-07-2010 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeppy111 (Post 834386)
He is a good guitarist, quite a tosser though.

I watched one of his instructional dvd's that a friend lent me and he came across as everything I hate about metal, reminded me of Dream Theatre. Yet the Nevermore album I have and his solo album (zero order phase) were rather decent.

Too be honest, I don`t really like too many albums where the lead guitarist has gone off and done a solo album and indulged in his kind of thing...boring is what often comes to mind, hence I never listen to stuff by Malmsteen, Vai or Satriani to name just a few. The only album that I`ve recently listened too by some such guitarist was "Degradation Trip" by Jerry Cantrell and I think that is a great album and Jerry is also a great vocalist as well, never really got the chance in AIC.

zeppy111 03-07-2010 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier (Post 834398)
Too be honest, I don`t really like too many albums where the lead guitarist has gone off and done a solo album and indulged in his kind of thing...boring is what often comes to mind, hence I never listen to stuff by Malmsteen, Vai or Satriani to name just a few. The only album that I`ve recently listened too by some such guitarist was "Degradation Trip" by Jerry Cantrell and I think that is a great album and Jerry is also a great vocalist as well, never really got the chance in AIC.

I have to agree with that, I too don't have much time for Vai, Malmsteen ect... I have never really listened to AIC, but the few songs that I did here didn't spark much interest. Must check them out properly some other time.

Unknown Soldier 03-07-2010 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeppy111 (Post 834407)
I have to agree with that, I too don't have much time for Vai, Malmsteen ect... I have never really listened to AIC, but the few songs that I did here didn't spark much interest. Must check them out properly some other time.

AIC were never one of my favourite grunge acts either, but I`m part of a minority opinion, as they are probably the most loved grunge outfit around, especially by a lot of people on this forum.

Larrymusicbuff46 03-20-2010 10:08 AM

Hi,

Hate to be so detail-oriented (aka anal), but it's spelled Iommi, not Lommi. It's easy to mistake an "I" for a small "L".

The people who wrote the first few posts of each thread are extremely knowledgeable about the respective genres, and able to communicate this knowledge in a way that's easy to understand. Well done!

Jim

scottsy 03-21-2010 08:33 AM

I like them.... not into them nearly as much as others on this forum might, but they are pretty cool in my opinion...

Samm 03-21-2010 12:50 PM

I really dont feel that you could classify Rush as "Progressive Metal". They are very prog, but not metal at all for the most part

Unknown Soldier 03-21-2010 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samm (Post 839712)
I really dont feel that you could classify Rush as "Progressive Metal". They are very prog, but not metal at all for the most part

Agree, I think they`re most likely on there for their influence on the genre.

jazzybeatz 07-05-2010 06:25 AM

Wow I have truely learned alot reading this post...

wcjulha0710 07-21-2010 03:09 AM

Quote:

Thrash metal combines the speed and intensity of punk and hardcore with the precision of metal. High velocity riffing and shifting time changes are commonly used, all anchored by “machine gun” style drumming. Beginning in 1981 with Overkill, Thrash metal remained an underground until 1984 with the release of Overkill’s “Feel The Fire” and the ever present Slayer’s “Haunting the Chapel EP”. Thrash metal started to stagnate with too many bands saturating the relatively small market. However in 1989 with Sepultra’s “Beneath the Remains” being release on Roadrunner Records. Europe got into the sound and soon bands such as the Haunted and Kreator combining the Swedish death style with Thrash riffs.

Examples: Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Annihilator, Overkill, Death Angel, Kreator, Anthrax
Metallica is here! Then i am the fan of this catagory!

History
------------------

History
Early years (1981–1983)

Metallica was formed in Los Angeles, California, in late 1981 when drummer Lars Ulrich placed an advertisement in a Los Angeles newspaper—The Recycler—which read "Drummer looking for other metal musicians to jam with Tygers of Pan Tang, Diamond Head and Iron Maiden."Guitarists James Hetfield and Hugh Tanner of Leather Charm answered the advertisement. Although he had not formed a band, Ulrich asked Metal Blade Records founder Brian Slagel if he could record a song for the label's upcoming compilation Metal Massacre. Slagel accepted, and Ulrich recruited Hetfield to sing and play rhythm guitar. The band was officially formed in October 1981, five months after Ulrich and Hetfield first met.

Ulrich talked to his friend Ron Quintana, who was brainstorming names for a fanzine. Quintana had proposed the names Metal Mania and Metallica. Ulrich used Metallica for the name of his band. A second advertisement was placed in The Recycler for a position as lead guitarist. Dave Mustaine answered, and, after seeing his expensive guitar equipment, Ulrich and Hetfield recruited him. In early 1982, Metallica recorded its first original song "Hit the Lights" for the Metal Massacre I compilation. Hetfield played bass on the song and Lloyd Grant was credited with a guitar solo. Released on June 14, 1982, early pressings of Metal Massacre I listed the band incorrectly as "Mettallica". Although angered by the error, Metallica managed to create enough "buzz" with the song and the band played its first live show on March 14, 1982, at Radio City in Anaheim, California with newly recruited bassist Ron McGovney. Metallica recorded its first demo, Power Metal, a name inspired by Quintana's early business cards in early 1982. In the fall of 1982, Ulrich and Hetfield attended a show at the West Hollywood nightclub Whisky a Go Go which featured bassist Cliff Burton in a band called Trauma. The two were "blown away" by Burton's use of a wah-wah pedal and asked him to join Metallica. Hetfield and Mustaine wanted McGovney out as they thought that he "didn't contribute anything, he just followed."Although Burton initially declined the offer, by the end of the year he accepted on the condition the band move to El Cerrito in the San Francisco Bay Area. Metallica's first live performance with Burton was at the nightclub The Stone in March 1983, and the first recording to feature Burton was the 1983 Megaforce demo.

Metallica was ready to record its debut album, but when Metal Blade was unable to cover the additional cost, the band began looking for other options. Concert promoter Johnny "Z" Zazula, who had heard the 1982 No Life 'til Leather demo, offered to broker a record deal with Metallica and New York City-based record labels. After receiving no interest from various record labels, Zazula borrowed the money to cover the record's recording budget and signed Metallica to his own label, Megaforce Records.Band members decided to kick Mustaine out of the band due to drug and alcohol abuse and violent behavior. Exodus guitarist Kirk Hammett flew in to replace Mustaine the same afternoon. Metallica's first show with Hammett was on April 16, 1983, at the nightclub The Showplace in Dover, New Jersey.

Mustaine, who went on to found Megadeth, has expressed his dislike for Hammett in interviews. He said Hammett "stole my job." Mustaine was "pissed off" because he believes Hammett became popular by playing the guitar leads that Mustaine wrote.In a 1985 interview with Metal Forces, Mustaine slammed Hammett saying, "it's real funny how Kirk Hammett ripped off every lead break I'd played on that No Life 'til Leather tape and got voted No. 1 guitarist in your magazine."[16] On Megadeth's 1985 debut album Killing Is My Business... and Business Is Good!, Mustaine included the song "Mechanix", which Metallica renamed as "The Four Horsemen" on Kill 'Em All. Mustaine said he did this to "straighten Metallica up", as Metallica referred to Mustaine as a drunk and said he could not play guitar.

fritter 07-30-2010 01:07 AM

you forgot hair metal. if folk metal deserves to be called a genre, so does hair metal.

scottsy 07-30-2010 12:29 PM

Fritter has a point there...

briRoxx 10-03-2010 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks (Post 159638)
A Short History Of Metal

written by Ian Woods and Ethan Smith


Metal is music that can trace it's roots to both early rock and electric blues. Bands such as Black Sabbath and Deep Purple, who were influenced by Led Zeppelin, Cream, etc., are often credited with starting the genre known as Metal. But this is only partially true. Black Sabbath and Deep Purple were stoner/sludge (also known as doom) rock. Judas Priest are, in fact, the first real metal band (formed in 1971). Acts like Iron Maiden and Motorhead also developed this fledgling style. Metal musicians eventually started looking past Sabbath's blues scales and began writing diminished and minor keys into their solos and diatonic modes into their riffs.

These changes are now a standard in metal and it's many bastard children sub-genres. In the early 1980s and Thrash Metal made it’s debut with Metallica and Exodus being prominent. Through out the 80’s and 90’s, different Metal styles were being invented and developed. Death metal in Florida and Sweden. Black Metal in Norway. And Progressive Metal in Connecticut and Seattle. There are many sub genres and musical histories of metal so to help explain this, here are the main styles:

Black Metal


While Venom is credited with coining the term “Black Metal” (from their 1982 release of the same name) it is Mayhem and Bathory who gave it its distinct sound. Muddled, murky recording quality, fast paced scratchy guitar riffs, high screamed vocals that are usually barely heard and never understood, and pounding over bearing drums are the key in creating a Black Metal sound. The lyrical themes usually deal with Satanism, death, and even Nationa; Socialism (in the case of Burzum)

Examples: Darkthrone, Bathory, Immortal, Negator, Emperor, old Satyricon, Mayhem.

Death Metal


Style of metal that deals almost exclusively with…you guessed it, Death. Bands in this vein often write very gory and morbid lyrics. As far as music is concerned technical fast paced guitar is implemented with varying tempo’s and time signatures, however the sound is so muddied (intentionally through amp settings and recording) that it sounds very simple. Drums incorporate blast beats which are alternate hits of snare and bass drum with a crash or ride symbol hit. These are used in large amounts to accent the ferocity and speed of this style.

Examples: Morbid Angel, Death, Suffocation, Bolt Thrower, Rubicon, Dying Fetus, Possessed

Melodic Death Metal


Very similar to Death Metal with the addition of some melody. Screams can alternate between high and low. Songs are generally of a better sound quality

Examples: In Flames, Dark Tranquility, At The Gates, The Black Dahlia Murder, Entombed, Arsis


Doom Metal


Very melancholy sound that stresses tragedy and depression. Characterized by Black/Death vocals and slow, trudging guitar riffs. Several offshoot styles have arisen from Doom’s slowly grinding footsteps including Sludge Doom, Drone, and Funeral Doom. All of these follow the same basic blueprint, having relatively repetitive slow riffs and vocals stressing the negative of love, life, and the hereafter.

Examples: My Dying Bride, Sun O))), Candlemass, Sleep, Ramses, Grief

Folk Metal


Metal that incorporates folk melodies and rhythms in its music. Originally from Finland. Heavily influenced by the occult and Viking culture. Music is usually Black or Death in style.

Examples: Finntroll, Skyclad, Adorned Brood, Elvenking, Primordial, old Vintersong

Goth Metal


Sound style that depends heavy on ambiency and keyboards. Unlike Industrial “Metal” electronic’s are not heavy, instead string arrangements are used to heighten the forbidding atmosphere. Vocals alter between Death screams and clean singing, often provided by female vocalist. Goth bands usually fall into one extreme or the other, having mostly singing or mostly screaming with some talking parts. Also many Goth bands, most notably Type O Negative, have their roots in Thrash or Speed metal, but later changed their style as they “matured”. It is also important to noticed that many operatic acts (such as Nightwish, Lacuna Coil) have borrowed extensively from Gothic music, while not being a Gothic band themselves. Lyrical themes often deal with disillusionment and/or religious themes.

Examples: Theatre of Tragedy, Type O Negative, Without Face, Moonspell, Lacrimosa


Industrial Metal


Depends heavily on synthesizers to fill out the often hollow sound. Metal-esque riffs are used and vocals are often put through some sort of distortion. Sometimes referred to as “dance metal”. There are two distinct sides to Industrial, the Electronic turned Metal, as demonstrated by Ministry and KMFDM, and Metal turned Electronic, such as Godflesh and Malhavoc.

Examples: Godflesh, KMFDM, Red Harvest, Rammstein, Zeromancer, Ministry, Frontline Assembly, Swamp Terrorist


Hardcore Metal


Also referred to as Metalcore, Hardcore Metal borrows heavily from Hardcore in terms of drum patterns and lyrical themes. The metal/hardcore crossover style began in the late 1980’s with bands such as Integrity and Nuclear Assault combining the speed and fury and punk and hardcore with the metal riffing. Early metalcore and thrash shared many similarities but for the mid raged growl of hardcore vocals. The style evolved over time containing just as many Swedish influences (Killswitch Engage, As I Lay Dying) as it has Southern Rock (Everytime I Die, A Life Once Lost).

Examples: Dead to Fall, Zao, Everytime I Die, Lamb of God, As I Lay Dying, I Killed The Prom Queen


Power Metal


Borrowing heavily from baroque style classical music and classical music in general, Power Metal came to the forefront of the metal scene in the mid 80’s, even though it’s inception began with the formation of Iron Maiden in 1975. The dueling style solo’s used by the their guitarist set the benchmark for Power Metal to follow. Europe’s Accept fused Iron Maiden’s mentality with folk music to form their own distinct sound. Power Metal has grown more grandiose as time goes on, with bands such as Blind Guardian and Iced Earth gaining national attention. Lyrical theme’s include many fantasy standard (dragons, wizards, castles, battle) and folkish themes (folk heros, religious stories).

Examples: DragonForce, Angra, Iron Maiden, Fates Warning, Hammerfall, Mystic Prophecy, Kamelot


Progressive Metal


Prog Metal is simply progressive rock with a heavier mentality. Progressive music’s sound cannot really be pigeonholed due to the very nature of Progressive Music, however some factors remain constant. The musicianship is very high and often very complex. Most songs are very long with very few “parts” repeated. And often bands put out concept albums (albums unified by a central theme that runs throughout the record. Often songs will have a consistent riff or sound that anchors it together). Developed in part by Queensrÿche, Dream Theatre, and Fates Warning in the mid 80’s, Progressive metal has expanded into countless sub-styles. Ranging from the death metal influenced Opeth and Cynic, to the spazzy PsyOpus and the Dillinger Escape Plan to the jazz stylings of Liquid Tension Experiment and Ephel Duath.

Examples: Dream Theater, Symphony X, Opeth, Rush, Atheist, Liquid Tension Experiment



Thrash Metal


Thrash metal combines the speed and intensity of punk and hardcore with the precision of metal. High velocity riffing and shifting time changes are commonly used, all anchored by “machine gun” style drumming. Beginning in 1981 with Overkill, Thrash metal remained an underground until 1984 with the release of Overkill’s “Feel The Fire” and the ever present Slayer’s “Haunting the Chapel EP”. Thrash metal started to stagnate with too many bands saturating the relatively small market. However in 1989 with Sepultra’s “Beneath the Remains” being release on Roadrunner Records. Europe got into the sound and soon bands such as the Haunted and Kreator combining the Swedish death style with Thrash riffs.

Examples: Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Annihilator, Overkill, Death Angel, Kreator, Anthrax

Nu Metal


Not truly a metal sub-genre, more closely like a 2nd cousin twice removed, Nu Metal combines some metallic and alternative rock riffing with a hip hop based vocal delivery and rhythm. Usually involves heavy sampling and turn table use. Many bands reached mainstream status. Lyrics usually tell of some sort of hardship, whether it be a relationship failure or substance abuse. Few true metal heads put this bastardization of our music on the same level as other genres however.

Examples: Korn, the Deftones, Limp Bizkit, Staind, American Head Charge, Taproot, Cold

very well explained,and thought out,you have a great grasp on the music...you obviously play....great read,keep up the awsome work,hope to see more from you in the future :clap:

RVCA 10-16-2010 06:08 PM

Really? Led Zeppelin is Psychedelic Rock? I always considered it Hard Rock.

jackhammer 10-16-2010 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVCA (Post 943941)
Really? Led Zeppelin is Psychedelic Rock? I always considered it Hard Rock.

I just consider them a Rock band with no extra tags personally.

R4TR Drummer7 10-20-2010 08:27 PM

I found this to be very helpful. thanks for educating me on some things i did not know!

snagglepuss 10-25-2010 02:14 PM

A very edu-taining thread! As i read through the descriptions of some of the types of prog, i think I realized I'm not really much of a fan of "prog" persay as i thought.

I enjoy different bands from across the prog/psychedelia spectrum but I can't say that I concentrate on one specific type.

For example I've never been a fan of Yes or Genesis or King Crimson.

But I really like Pink Floyd, Rush, Caravan, Gong, Traffic.

Like most people, I just like what moves me. :hphones:

Necromancer 12-12-2010 07:25 PM

I would like to ask everyone's opinion on the subject concerning the genre, Progressive Rock. I was talking to a friend of mine today, and he insisted that the band Rush, wasn't really a true traditional progressive rock band, like the most popular progressive rock bands were (for example), Genesis, and others. And that instead they should be labeled as, Technical Rock, or Heavy Metal. Instead of being labeled in the Progressive Rock genre. What is your opinion on the subject?

Unknown Soldier 12-13-2010 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VocalsBass (Post 969072)
I would like to ask everyone's opinion on the subject concerning the genre, Progressive Rock. I was talking to a friend of mine today, and he insisted that the band Rush, wasn't really a true traditional progressive rock band, like the most popular progressive rock bands were (for example), Genesis, and others. And that instead they should be labeled as, Technical Rock, or Heavy Metal. Instead of being labeled in the Progressive Rock genre. What is your opinion on the subject?

The majority of their 70`s output is definately prog rock. Calling them heavy metal is so far off the the radar, despite the fact that their early 70`s material does fall into the hard rock camp.

What is technical rock?......Perhaps any band that knows how to play their instruments really well and and play complex songs. A description which fits prog rock/prog metal pretty well.

Necromancer 12-13-2010 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier (Post 969237)
The majority of their 70`s output is definately prog rock. Calling them heavy metal is so far off the the radar, despite the fact that their early 70`s material does fall into the hard rock camp.

What is technical rock?......Perhaps any band that knows how to play their instruments really well and and play complex songs. A description which fits prog rock/prog metal pretty well.

Here is his view on the subject.

"Bands are defined by their hits (as far as genres and public are concerned)....and RUSH's main hits are NOT progressive, they are just awesome hard rock songs".
"Yes!, Rush has some songs that I could consider Progressive, like for example La Villa, but overall, I see them as a very technical, legendary rock band....nothing more, nothing less, Rush is a Hard Rock Band".


Regardless of my opinion, I do see where he ^ is coming from. I myself, think that Rush is better classified in the Progressive Rock genre, they layed the blueprint to their style of progressive rock, with the album Caress Of Steel, which then went on to 2112. Isn't that progressive rock? more so, than heavy metal or hard rock.

Unknown Soldier 12-13-2010 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VocalsBass (Post 969288)
Here is his view on the subject.

"Bands are defined by their hits (as far as genres and public are concerned)....and RUSH's main hits are NOT progressive, they are just awesome hard rock songs".
"Yes!, Rush has some songs that I could consider Progressive, like for example La Villa, but overall, I see them as a very technical, legendary rock band....nothing more, nothing less, Rush is a Hard Rock Band".


Regardless of my opinion, I do see where he ^ is coming from. I myself, think that Rush is better classified in the Progressive Rock genre, they layed the blueprint to their style of progressive rock, with the album Caress Of Steel, which then went on to 2112. Isn't that progressive rock? more so, than heavy metal or hard rock.

Hits are not always represenative of a bands true sound........so I don`t think that statement holds true.

Some of the best known prog bands Yes, Pink Floyd and Kansas for example have had hits and songs that have been extremely easy on the ear, melodic and not really prog, but these bands are very representative of the prog genre.

Necromancer 12-13-2010 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier (Post 969361)
Hits are not always represenative of a bands true sound........so I don`t think that statement holds true.

Some of the best known prog bands Yes, Pink Floyd and Kansas for example have had hits and songs that have been extremely easy on the ear, melodic and not really prog, but these bands are very representative of the prog genre.

I agree, I've only seen Rush mentioned once in Wikipedia, or some other article pertaining to the subject progressive rock. The genre classification for Rush is, hard rock, progressive rock, & heavy metal. I agree with the Hard Rock, concerning early Rush, but progressive rock wins, for me personally.

Unknown Soldier 12-13-2010 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VocalsBass (Post 969385)
I agree, I've only seen Rush mentioned once in Wikipedia, or some other article pertaining to the subject progressive rock. The genre classification for Rush is, hard rock, progressive rock, & heavy metal. I agree with the Hard Rock, concerning early Rush, but progressive rock wins, for me personally.

A lot of bands get different genres, but its the genre that the band are known best for that normally dominates.

There are a number of bands though, that have shifted through different genres and can equally be recognized for these genres.

Jethro Tull- Blues Rock, Prog Rock and Folk Rock.

Are a great example, as they did all three equally well and are well known for these three styles.

ddp 12-14-2010 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VocalsBass (Post 969072)
I would like to ask everyone's opinion on the subject concerning the genre, Progressive Rock. I was talking to a friend of mine today, and he insisted that the band Rush, wasn't really a true traditional progressive rock band, like the most popular progressive rock bands were (for example), Genesis, and others. And that instead they should be labeled as, Technical Rock, or Heavy Metal. Instead of being labeled in the Progressive Rock genre. What is your opinion on the subject?

Rush is THE PROGRESSIVE ROCK band. Back in the day nobody called them that but looking back on them they are. Tons of songs in odd time signatures, long songs with tons of parts awesome playing it is all there.

Bands like Genesis and Yes were considered "Art Rock" when they came out and were even lumped in with acts like David Bowie (during his Ziggy period). They were in a different category.

ddp 12-14-2010 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VocalsBass (Post 969288)
Here is his view on the subject.

"Bands are defined by their hits (as far as genres and public are concerned)....and RUSH's main hits are NOT progressive, they are just awesome hard rock songs".
"Yes!, Rush has some songs that I could consider Progressive, like for example La Villa, but overall, I see them as a very technical, legendary rock band....nothing more, nothing less, Rush is a Hard Rock Band".


Regardless of my opinion, I do see where he ^ is coming from. I myself, think that Rush is better classified in the Progressive Rock genre, they layed the blueprint to their style of progressive rock, with the album Caress Of Steel, which then went on to 2112. Isn't that progressive rock? more so, than heavy metal or hard rock.

Huh?? Tom Saywer is a Prog rock classic. Tons of tricky riffs.

Certif1ed 12-22-2010 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VocalsBass (Post 969072)
I would like to ask everyone's opinion on the subject concerning the genre, Progressive Rock. I was talking to a friend of mine today, and he insisted that the band Rush, wasn't really a true traditional progressive rock band, like the most popular progressive rock bands were (for example), Genesis, and others. And that instead they should be labeled as, Technical Rock, or Heavy Metal. Instead of being labeled in the Progressive Rock genre. What is your opinion on the subject?

It's a fair point in many ways, but the best comeback to this sort of argument is that Progressive Rock is Progressive - so if it was like the music of Genesis, then it could arguably not be called Progressive...

The essence of Progressive music is not that it's complicated (many people say "complex", without a true understanding of what complex music is!), but that it is in someway organic, and much freer in form than non-Progressive music.

This last tag "freer in form" is the key - I once researched this topic fully, and, to spare the detail, found the root in a guy called Stan Kenton, around 1947, who produced and described what he called "Progressive Jazz". The essence was that the form of the music was broken down and made freer (not "free", which is nearly impossible) until the original musical styling was unrecognisable.

Keith Emerson later came along and described the music as turning itself upside down and inside out - which is kinda saying the same thing, and, since Keith was at the forefront of the Prog Rock music in 1968 (pre-Crimson!), I'd take his word for it.

So, if we look at Rush's material, perhaps tracks like 2112, or By-Tor and the Snow Dog, we see music that, formally, does not represent Classic Rock at all - where are the verses and choruses for a start?

After this, we can get nit-picky and waffle on about "complexity", time signatures and all the other stuff that Proggers love to bore us with - and find it all in Rush's music.

So Progressive they are, by any definition - never mind the hits - "We Can't Dance", anyone?

Then there's the question of the metal quotient.

Let's go back in time to 1976 (the year 2112 was released).

{strange wibbly effect}

What did heavy metal fans have to listen to in 1976?

The Scorpions, Judas Priest and UFO.

...drums fingers...

What else could we call Rush?

Hard Rock?

What's the essential difference between Hard Rock and Heavy Metal prior to Metallica's "Kill 'Em All" genre redefinition in 1983?

Beats me - although I did devote a needlessly long thread to exploring the essence of Metal a while ago.

Maybe it's the difference between Bad Company and Judas Priest?

Bad Co = songs about makin' lurve, drinking, and other macho activities.

Judas Priest (circa 1976) = songs about dark things, similar in tone to Black Sabbath, but faster.

Rush didn't sing about makin' lurve much - and with a squeaky voice like that, you wouldn't (apologies for the lame gag, Rushfans - won't happen again).

The subject matter was very much in the realms of fantasy - but maybe a tad upbeat for metal, with all that milk and honeydew stuff?

The music was tight as you like though - which is more than can be said for the loose boogie of Bad Company. Boogie didn't really tighten up until AC/DC strutted their way stagefront - and are they rock or metal.

Don't. Even. Start.

Rush = Progressive Metal as it was in the 1970s - and they were the only ones doing what they did, so I think it's a fair claim.

:band:


For other 1970s Progressive Metal, check out "From The Fjords" by Legend.

If you can find a copy of this oh-so-rare-and-desirable LP, it will blow your mind completely. Listen to a sample (and read a cool review at the same time!); http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/le...d-states).aspx

almauro 02-16-2011 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VocalsBass (Post 969072)
I would like to ask everyone's opinion on the subject concerning the genre, Progressive Rock. I was talking to a friend of mine today, and he insisted that the band Rush, wasn't really a true traditional progressive rock band, like the most popular progressive rock bands were (for example), Genesis, and others. And that instead they should be labeled as, Technical Rock, or Heavy Metal. Instead of being labeled in the Progressive Rock genre. What is your opinion on the subject?

They're one of the first progressive hard rock bands. Look at them the same way Voivod and Coroner are labelled progressive thrash bands, Death and Atheist are progressive death metal bands, and Enslaved is a progressive black metal band. They're bound by their original genre. Rush started out as a loud bar band playing Zepplin riffs, came up with one of the greatest hard rock riffs with "Working Man", first toured with Kiss, even their most acclaimed epic 2112 is half a hard rock album. So technically, the dude excluding them from bands such as the original prog-rockers like Yes and Genesis is correct, he's just got the wrong terminology.


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