well, i know where led zepeelen belong. but im confuse. what do u think about alternative. which rock is this belong???? soft rock... hehehehe

This is very enlightening.
I didn't even know there are so many genres.
Yes I'm musically ignorant a bit.

Sweet, this thread's awesome. They kinda got a genre tag for every little shift in progression, pace, breakdown lyrical content though, and people who huddle around drunk blabbering about the difference for three hours go too far with the topic... Real cool to read the history though. Thanks! :)

Was Korpiklaani mentioned here? Finnish crazy folk metal.

Black Sabbath was the first band called metal, right? The same way Rites of Spring is called the first emo band, but most of the bands it influenced don't sound like them and are no longer are hardcore punk.

Very funny, nice stuff.

I never the stuff with just screaming too. Ya gotta have singing.
Most good metal and prog does have a melody even if it is mixed below the rhythm guitars in the mix.

Some real good posts here, I am amazed how smart you people are about this subject AAAAA+++

Check your pm box

I disrespectfully disagree. You have no idea what you're talking about.

And I know I've been promising it for 2 years, but I'm serious about reworking the metal education post. Once I get a break from this mountain of papers and tests I'll crank out v.2.0 one night.

no i say

leave t3h metal
unhindered by such accusations

Some of the metal-education post needs to be fixed. There are some terrible assumptions in there.

Care to enlighten us all then?

-Melodic death metal does not have a "better sound quality."
-The doom metal section fails to mention anything about traditional doom besides Candlemass in the examples part of it.
-Entombed are not melodic death metal
-The Haunted and Kreator are not similar whatsoever and The Haunted didn't borrow anything from Swedish dm.

....there are others

Judas Priest as founder of metal? i don't think so. Black Sabbath did. Tony Lommi Sabbaths lead guitarist lost one of his fingers working at a plant, and he made a fake one and when played on the guitar as he strummed the chords is made a deeper darker sound. that was the birth of heavy metal.

I definitely agree with the part in bold.

But the rest of your post looks to be total bull. First, Iommi didn't lose a finger but the tips of two fingers on his right hand (middle and ring, I think). He played left-handed. The plastic finger tips he created had nothing to do with the way he hit chords since they were on his fret hand. And, in any case, it's generally the progressions themselves (chromatic, tritone, modal scale), which gives metal its character, not just how the chords are hit.

Next, you'll be saying that his plastic finger tips gave birth to palm-muting (or pizzicato)...

well you got most of it right. the only thing with his prosthetic fingers was that he had to tune his guitar down giving it that deeper metal sound.

That happening just sounds metal as it is. Hmmm I guess I'll look up some videos I never really paid attention to his fingers.

Probably at it's peak between 1976 to 1980.If any group that charactaristed Pomp rock it would be Saga (Canadian).Other than that Styx (American).It was a term used by the press by for groups who sounded kind of Prog but never really took their music on a journey like Prog groups did.The music used short keyboard/guitar breaks instead of extended ones.It is was mainly uptempo/positive sounding - it was FM radio friendly.Arena rockers Journey,Boston & Kansas etc I would consider associated, Magnum had better song/musical craft to fit in easily with Pomp but related (Melodic Heavy rock).Pendragon - definately Neo-Prog.In the early 70's Rush were often refered as Pomp as well,but not as FM radio friendly & had better song/musical craft again.It basically went out of fasion when new wave & then neo-prog (about '82) emerged.

I would say Sabbath were the originators of the early stripped down louder blues/hard rock based Metal sound [based on Led Zeppelin's sound or even King Crimson's - 21st Century Schizoid Man (track)]- which had a slow to medium tempo.Judas Priest developed a new sounding metal from their early Heavy Prog sound stripped it down speeded up the tempo & made it more abrasive to form a sound associated with 80's NWOBHM sound (Iron Maiden). almost Trad Metal now.

The origins of prog rock have often been linked to the beginning of the psychedelic scene that flourished in both the UK and US, starting as far back as 1965. Amongst popular bands The Beatles were pioneers with albums like Revolver, Sgt.Pepper, and Magical Mystery Tour and surely had a profound influence on their English followers in Crimson, Yes, Genesis, Floyd and the rest...up until today with bands like Radiohead Porcupine Tree, and Three (3)

I don't think anyone mentioned GRUNGE rock like Alice In Chains, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Soundgarden, Mad Season, Screaming Trees. VERY important genre to be left out if i do say so myself.

I love Jade Warrior, more toward the beginning incarnation of the band... first wave Jade Warrior if you will.

Yeah, I agree here, Grunge needs to be added to the list of Rock, it is an important form of rock (imo)

Yeah, but grunge, its not progressive rock :nono:

Do anyone love the Gentle Giants????

You have Lamb of God as Hardcore I think they belong somewhere along the lines of Groove Metal. That seems to fit them a little more

Yeah it's true he got the tip cut off not the whole finger. He began with a metal piece on the tip of his finger And try rubbin any piece of metal it gives a new tone.

I think Black Sabbath undoubtedly gave birth to the heavy metal movement and laid down its foundations such as image and sound etc but the fact that they were like most bands of their day, originally a blues rock outfit really goes against what heavy metal would become, for this reason Judas Priest could be seen as the first true heavy metal band because of the complete lack of blues influence and their double lead guitar etc.

I suppose you could put pomp rock somewhere in between prog rock and arena rock because groups like Styx and Kansas could easiily fit into this genre as to a degree could both Boston and Toto, Steve Perry Journey less so.

Grunge might be a long way from Prog but songs like "21st Century Schizoid Man" and Some King Crimson material would have definately been a huge influence on Prog.

Even grungy sounding groups like The Smashing Pumpkins were probably closer to Prog than grunge in spirit at least, given the complex arrangements and mellotron stylings in their music.

Gentle Giant is great! Also King Krimson, Yes, Rush, all great prog groups. Let's not forget Frank Zappa!

And there is a connection from prog to grunge. Listen to Soundgarden songs like outshined have a definite prog influence!

There may be a prog influence, but that does not maketh Prog out of Grunge...

Deep Purple started BEFORE Led Zeppelin. While DP were touring with their Mk1 lineup, Led Zep were still either leaving the Yardbirds, in the process of forming, or supporting Frijid Pink...

As a blues rock band with organ player, they cultivated an original heavy sound that is quite dissimilar to that of Zep - the whole musical style is also worlds away. Apart from the obvious common blues rock root (Cream, and more strongly, Yardbirds and Bluesbreakers, but also many unsung Garage acts of the time), Zeppelin had a strong folk flavour on their first 4 albums, while Deep Purple went for Classical influences and hardly dipped into folk at all.

Not sure how you can say this as "fact" - although Priest may have formed in 1971, they didn't release an album until 1975, and "Rocka Rolla" is practically a Prog Rock album, with meandering compositions that are nothing like the brand of heavy metal they went on to develop.

Metal had, "in fact" already begun in the music of UFO (debut album 1970) and The Scorpions (debut 1972). Both created metal anthems in 1974 - The Scorpions song "Speedy's Coming" on "Fly To The Rainbow" is the heaviest, but UFO's album "Phenomenon" is a more consistently heavy metal sounding album. Also in 1974, Glam rock bands had started to acquire a heavier sound, particularly The Sweet, whose "Action" and "Hellraiser" were later covered by NWoBHM technical/speed metal pioneers Raven, and notably Queen - who included heavy numbers on their albums from their 1971 debut, but produced the first "thrash" style song "Stone Cold Crazy" also in 1974 on their album "Sheer Heart Attack".

The Scorpions, UFO, The Sweet and Queen were not alone in producing heavy music, of course, but these are the first definite offerings of the style which would become known as heavy metal, as disctinct from heavy blues-based rock. Glimmerings had been seen long before the 1970s in 1960s garage bands like The Sonics and The Pretty Things.

Priest didn't really cement their brand of heavy metal until 1977's "Sin After Sin", which is odd, on reflection, as they had Rodger Bain, Black Sabbath's producer behind the controls.

Although Sabbath (specifically Iommi) used the minor pentatonic a lot, he also appears to be among the first to use the diabolus in musica - the tritone - and drop-tuning. These two innovations are what made Sabbath's sound stand out so starkly from the pack, and are a DIRECT influence on modern metal, which practically depends on both, even more than it depends on non-pentatonic scales.

Deep Purple (among many others) had been using many Classical key structures and modes for ages - not to mention the proliferation of Prog Rock musicians, who had a strong influence on many metal bands. I don't think that this is a good generalisation, because there are many metal bands (e.g. Rammstein) who use simple power chords (with Sabbat-esque tritones).

The use of Minor keys is nothing new in rock or metal, and doesn't differentiate between modern and old metal at all. There's no such thing as a diminshed key, BTW - "diminished" refers to intervals between notes, not key signatures.

Likewise, as I said, Purple used diatonic modes, as did jazz musicians decades earlier. Since many jazz musicians crossed over into rock and metal, use of these modes is nothing new - although the huge proliferation of people learning them is. Listen to any album by the Mahavishnu Orchestra for modal madness over glorious rock music.


Not really - it was the "Big 4", and Exodus were not among that number, despite Kirk Hammet's involvement.

Metal Church were also very important in the evolution of thrash, but always get overlooked.

Thrash tried to debut several times - 1974, as I pointed out above, in "Stone Cold Crazy" (although some might argue the case for "Highway Star", by Deep Purple (1972). For me, though, the first true thrash song was "Exciter" by Judas Priest, even though the drumming is not "proper" thrash drumming.

In the late 1970s, punk rock outfit UK Subs delivered a fast, thrashy cover of "She's Not There", by The Animals, which seemed to kick off a new wave of punk bands playing ever faster - particularly Bad Brains and The Misfits, who had just as strong an influence on thrash as Venom and the fledgling Metallica, some 2-3 years later.


I really don't like all these subgenres - it's either metal or it ain't. Subdividing is just that - divisive.

Venom so badly wanted credit for something (because they sure as hell could not play when they started out), that they went to all lengths to coin the phrase for "the new style of metal" (which, to be fair to Venom, it was), as well as put on outrageous stage shows and put on that laughable satanic act. I only say laughable because I was laughing WITH them - I got the joke, they were a kind of Spinal Tap, but for real!

Possessed likewise are responsible for "Death Metal" (if you need the labels so badly), because their first album features all the odd time signatures you could ever need, as well as the distinctive Death Metal sound.


That's enough dissecting for now :D

You could also add, that Deep Purple also had a funky feel as well, just listen to the album Fireball.

...not forgetting the heavy psych feel of their earliest outings.

Purple's earliest albums are very similar in style to Spooky Tooth's - ST were called Art in 1967, and surely influenced Purple's first album, "Shades of Deep Purple" and earliest style (as Purple formed in 1968). Check out Purple's interpretation of Joe South's "Hush", and compare with the style of Spooky Tooth's "Too Much of Nothing" (1968) and Art's "Think I'm Going Wierd" (1967).

Much early hard rock had a funky swing to it - it was a pervasive style in the late 1960s-early 1970s, with that distinctive "10 pence, 10 pence, 50 pence, £1" drum beat, which resurfaced with a vengeance in the early 1990s and hasn't gone away - except most notably in metal and fringe music. :D

What about grunge?

It was left out deliberately to weed out people with no taste.

Ouch.... I happen to love grunge....

Early grunge was great as typified by both Nirvana and Soundgarden as were the first two albums by Stone Temple Pilots. Problem is what came after and the multitude of terrible post-grunge bands like Bush, Matchbox Twenty, Creed, Staind, Nickelback, Puddle of Mudd etc... In fact, I would say the only post grunge bands that had anything worth listening to were Everclear, Candlebox and Fuel. Both Kurt Cobain and Eric Vedder have a lot to answer for, because everybody in these bands seems to sing like them:bonkhead:

Original post is pretty cool and spot on for the most part. It should be pointed out that bands like Sunn O))) arent necessarily straight up Doom Metal and may be harder to get into than a lot of actual Doom Metal. Bands like Saint Vitus, Trouble, Pentagram, those three are probably the more easy bands to get into for someone getting into Doom Metal. Candlemass is often credited as the original Epic-Doom Metal band, but may be hard for some people to get into because of the vocals.

Speaking of Grunge in the last couple posts, you're right early Grunge (Mudhoney, Green River, the Melvins (well, to a certain extent.) Fecal Matter) Then the bands that helped to form Grunge are where its really at. (Meat Puppets, Flipper, Wipers, Fang so on.)

It's the time to Rock on !!!!!!!!

It may be the slogan of nowadays.........

Let's not forget Frank Zappa!
So........
Thanks.