Typically when I refer to Killswitch, I mean Jesse Leach era Killswitch- so yes I would call their first record innovative. It practically defines metalcore

Also, IMO Norma Jean does unconventional song structure in a bad way. Almost like a worse, and less talented BTBAM

You misunderstand me. When I said screaming, I wasn't talking about strictly super high pitched garbage found in post-hardcore. I'm using it as a general term. I'm talking about everything from deep death metal growls to the high pitched kind (although, as I said, these are annoying in excess). I wouldn't consider Machine Head to really have a scream of any kind (or a growl). It is more the noise one makes if they are on the phone yelling at someone while taking a giant dump. Honestly, I find it easy (and fun) to imitate, but I can't listen to it for recreation. Sometimes Unearth picks it up with more of a scream (or growl if you wanna be picky) but from what I have heard of them the dude just kinda poop-yells. Sorry about all these poop references but it is kind of difficult to describe any better way. Randy Blythe in my opinion is leagues above Flynn according to my criteria. And Lamb of God sounds pretty macho to me I might add. People prefer different sounding voices, but to me, Flynn just sounds like "one of the guys" who wants to pick up a microphone and shout into it. On the positive though, I think Flynn performs well (or at least consistent to the studio recording) and his clean vocals are good.

I think Corey and Anders are pretty good actually. Mikael has that sort of haunting quality to his clean vocals that make them very distinctive, but then he will turn around and let out deep guttural screams. Slipknot and In Flames do pull it off in my opinion. I agree that harsh/clean can sound pretty lame if not done well though (Killswitch's newest album is a major offender)

Aside from "Starting Over," its a good album :D

How can Blythe be leagues ahead of Flynn when Flynn doesn`t even fit your criteria to make a proper comparison, because as you say Machine Head do not have any screams or growls. They are two totally different singers who sing in completely different styles. In fact the only thing they have in common, is that both of their bands are classified as groove metal and very different styles of groove metal at that.

I`ve actually seen Machine Head live and live they sound very impressive especially Robert Flynn.

And by the way, I knew what you were talking about when you were referring to screaming:laughing: Phil Anselmo screams in a pretty macho way.

i'm only recently getting into metalcore, like what I heard so far

but i'll contend that grindcore is the best metal sub-genre, especially the early Earache Records stuff, i don't think any genre is gonna top that

I kind of feel out of touch with a lot of you guys one here when it comes to metalcore, what I`ve heard I mostly don`t like but there have been some bands that have shown promise. If some of you can recommend 5 or 10 metalcore albums that are essential to the genre, I`ll give them a serious listen and they may change my opinion on metalcore. :D

Trivium - Ascendancy
Parkway Drive - Horizons
Bullet for My Valentine - The Poison
The Chariot - The Fiancee
Killswitch Engage - As Daylight Dies
Every Time I Die - The Big Dirty (May not be metalcore but a good listen anyway)
I Killed the Prom Queen - Music for the Recently Deceased

Metalcore was most interesting in the early 00's with bands like Converge, Botch, Norma Jean, Killswitch Engage and BTBAM. These bands were more influenced by sludge and grindcore, rather than melo-death and anthemic punk. These early metalcore releases are fairly dissonant, very metallic and anti-melodic...with the exception of Killswitch and BTBAM which did flirt with melody. Check out:

Converge - Jane Doe
Botch - We Are the Romans
Norma Jean - Bless the Martyr and Kiss the Child
Between the Buried and Me - The Silent Circus
Killswitch Engage - Alive or Just Breathing

Killswitch's followup "The End of Heartache" is where the melodic-metalcore scene comes from. This has a much greater emphasis on clean anthemic punk-emo sung choruses. If you're interested in this, the next album "As Daylight Days" is better executed.

Finally, just like any other genre, there's the progressive sub-genre which has a lot of wanking, complexity and showmanship. BTBAM is the key band here and "Colors" is the place to start. TDEP probably has had the biggest influence on prog-metalcore as you will hear a lot of mathcore guitar riffs in this music. TDEP's most complex album is "Calculating Infinitey", the most accessible is "Ire Works".

You should also check out Hatebreed - Satisfaction Is the Death of Desire...sounds a little bit like Sepultura:)