The Metal Education Thread (pop, rock, genre, albums, magazine)

[Music Man]

Originally Posted by rob_the_vile

Sabbath were heavy metal, in the late 1970s, 1980s yes, but as has been stated in the past things change, nowadays sabbath would (in my opinion) be regarded as heavy rock when compared to heavy metal which developed from it

take manowar, formed in the late 70s and were probaly influenced in some part by sabbath, joey di maio was working as sabbaths road crew when they decided to form manowar! but they took those influences along with others to develop the heavy metal sound of today, while sabbath may have been called heavy metal back then, it was because there was nothing to compare it too! an to them it was heavy! now they would be considered heavy rock.

all you have to do is listen to what manowar/maiden/saxon were releasing at the same time as sabbath to notice a distinct difference!

all these things you have been quoting from magazines and websites may be saying they are heavy metal, but think about it if you were a metal magazine, and there was a band as succesful as sabbath out there, wouldnt you want to bend the truth just a little bit so you could include them! it happens.. ive even seen metal hammer refer to bullet for my valentine (who for the record i despise) as thrash! now if someone found that on the web they could quote that easily enough and not think anything of it!

Sorry, your excuses don't cut it. When I was listening to Sabbath back in the 70's, they were ALWAYS referred to as heavy metal. Virtually all the rock magazines, music encyclopedias/books of that era referred to them as HEAVY METAL.

So then or now, nobody was "bending" the truth to include them. YOU are the one bending the truth.

If anybody isn't metal, it's a lot of these wannabe "metal" bands of today, who don't have five percent of the musical talent the original Black Sabbath had.

Rob Halford of Judas Priest KNOWS metal, and he says Black Sabbath is METAL. Deal with it.

[riseagainstrocks]

Upon immersing myself in several of Sabbath's old records I shall amend my earlier statement.

Black Sabbath did not start out as a metal band. With the release of Volume 4, I began to hear the classic doomy metal riffs. However, to my mind and from the sound I was hearing the first 3 albums didn't have quite the same power and drive. And not metal riffs. Therefor the first three albums, doom rock. the last 43783 doom metal.

[Urban Hat€monger ?]

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Upon immersing myself in several of Sabbath's old records I shall amend my earlier statement.

Black Sabbath did not start out as a metal band. With the release of Volume 4, I began to hear the classic doomy metal riffs.

So is this the point where I say that Volume 4 is the best album they ever did & is 100 times better than the first 3 albums and start a whole new arguement

Although , having said that i`ve always considered the first 3 albums as Sabbaths heaviest albums , Volume 4 is more experimental & diverse.

[sleepy jack]

Originally Posted by Music Man

Sorry, your excuses don't cut it. When I was listening to Sabbath back in the 70's, they were ALWAYS referred to as heavy metal. Virtually all the rock magazines, music encyclopedias/books of that era referred to them as HEAVY METAL.

So then or now, nobody was "bending" the truth to include them. YOU are the one bending the truth.

If anybody isn't metal, it's a lot of these wannabe "metal" bands of today, who don't have five percent of the musical talent the original Black Sabbath had.

Rob Halford of Judas Priest KNOWS metal, and he says Black Sabbath is METAL. Deal with it.

Once again, i love how you can't prove they're heavy metal with sound so you resort to quoting people. The stupid quote "sabbath is heavy metal because so and so says so" isn't cutting it. Tell me why they sound more similar to doom rock bands then heavy metal bands, then explain to me using their sound why they're heavy metal. Not his well *insert metal star here* says they are! and frankly this thread turning into a what sabbath is is starting to piss me off, if you can't put sabbath in the sub genre using sound, then don't post.

[The Overlord]

get off the sabbath topic for ****s sake who cares they were metal there probably not now too old too drugged havnt had an original idea in ages, they wore leather they were heavy they had big guitar tone who cares who care

now here are some bands i care about and seeing this post is about genres, now pretending that metal isnt just metal could someone please define the following

DAmaged especially the albums: do not spit and token remedies research what is this? its not grind its not death metal, but its really heavy and really fast and exceptionatly brutal the drummer is debatedly one of the best.
Fantomas they are heavy (****ing heavy live) they have one of the most influnential metal drummers but they arnt considered metal so what are they??
i want to know seeing this forum is about sub genres what these two bands are and while were at it whats dimmu borgir these days and cryptopsy.
if you dont have damaged then dont bother ever posting on a metal forum again because they are just the band who fear factory and pantera bowed there heads too when they were at there peak, even though damaged never got paid.
And yes we all know that sub genres were made my bands who probably played a riff from another sub genre in the sub genre they were trying to belong too for example a thrash band played a punk riff or a death metal riff in a song and therefore couldnt define themselves as thrash any more so they are now...hate core? and yes sometimes these sub genres take off, personally i cant buy a record of sub genres because if i buy a great death metal cd why would i buy all these other death metal albums if they are going to sound exactly the same, every now and then a band emerges that impresses me but i usually dont have time to buy all the copycats, for example (i like exampling today) cryptopsy or meshuggah how many bands are ripping them off now? too many im not going to buy there records

[riseagainstrocks]

Never heard Damaged. And since you compared them to Fear Factory, I don't want to hear them.

Cryptopsy is still Death Metal. very technical Death Metal. Once Was Not wasn't as good as say, Whisper Supremecy or None So Vile.

Meshuggah...hmmm, melodic death metal, although they are all over the place sometimes. Progressive Metal could also easily house them

Dimmu Borgir are Industrial/Gothic. I'm not a huge fan. Check of Shade Empire, much better.

and dude, I understand what you're saying about sub genres and such, but you're taking the specific case and applying it the general case. Not everyone overclassifies. Most people think it's stupid, just like you.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Never heard Damaged. And since you compared them to Fear Factory, I don't want to hear them.

yes if damaged sounded like fear factory i wouldnt listen to them either, what i was trying to say is that they completlly blew FF off stage, they were rightly humbled, so was pantera when do not spit blew them off the charts, if damaged didnt have so many internal problems they would have been a name well respected, they did the stupidest thing and replaced an awsome singer with kevin sharp of brutal truth ooops. so never buy purified in pain, but there other albums are seriously amazing
a sample can be found at intoannihilation com youll need to fix the link (adding the '.'s, i havnt posted enough to put urls on yet.
They dont sound like FF
i think there over now but they were one of australias best exports.
now with Death metal im confused on how Whisper supremecy and and then youll beg is death metal, the vocals on the most part are not, and lyrically its not about death only the worst singer ever lord worm is death metal and he cant keep up with the band (well neither could desalvo with and then youll beg but it was better than worm).
and meshuggah melodic death?? really? i thought at the gates was melodic death, meshuggah sound nothing like that, vocally its not death metal, and tech wise its too heavy for prog.
yeah im not a huge fan of dimmu either though they do have there moments of shining the orchestras, the bass players vocal parts and such, thats interesting that they are gothic industirial, i heared they were black metal becuase of the satan crap, but i can hear the goth, well no see the goth side pretty clearly but it just looks like more commercial black metal.

[Muzak]

I would like to thank Riseagainstrocks for making this thread. I now found some new great bands that I like and i use this to label the genres on my iTunes. Keep up the great work!

[sleepy jack]

Wow yes, Rise you kick ass. Muzak is right, round of applause....how did you write this whole thing yourself?

[riseagainstrocks]

well, Crowquill gave me the layout, and I used my own vast knowledge, a few books (most notably Choosing Death: The Improbable History of Death Metal and Grindcore by Albert Mudrian. I highly reccomend this if you are at all into Death or Grind), some very smart friends, my Uncle Paul who is basically the expert at all things Progressive (sorry boo boo, he's got you beat), and some internet articles to fill in the holes.

thanks for the support! Version 2 due out March-ish!