I never said that. You're creating another strawman.

In no place ever is ICP more respected than 2Pac.

But they still are finally getting respect after all these years and they have been called hip hop legends by significant figures in the hip hop community/industry like Ebro.

Then you also have to wonder how many people 'in the hood' are casual hip hop fans. Like, most people in general credit the flow that 36 Mafia had been using 20 years ago to The Migos. To even credit 36 Mafia may even be a disservice to people like Tommy Wright III.

yeh yeh both sides etc

well that was my point and you came back at me with you don't speak for black people

But now you're agreeing my assessment wasn't wrong?

Also they're not very respected in general. They might have had a few people speak favorably about them but you can probably say that about MC Hammer

You said black people don't know who ICP even is. That assessment I think is wrong. And you're trying to use your assumptions of black people as a crutch to invalidate my opinions. You use Utah as a well poisoning punch line and that I disagree with.

The useless point of 2Pac being more respected, that has nothing to do with the conversation, I don't think is wrong. You're being disingenuous about your intent, you're trying to say ICP aren't hip hop legends because you don't think people in the hood even know who they are. Which is a very ****ty point.

MC Hammer is also considered a hip hop legend, absolutely. You're going to deny that now?

Fun fact: You don't have to like an artist's music to respect them as a legend.

I said either people in the hood don't know them or they are generally seen as a joke. You could extend that to hip hop fans in general and i still stand by that assessment.

I only brought up the difference in respect they get vs pac cause you decided to bash pac in your defense of ICP and Batlord directly compared them.



he's a hip hop legend based mostly on his commercial success at a time hip hop hadn't broken through as much in that realm. But he's not revered as a major contributor to the genre in terms of art or influence. He's exceptional strictly as a commerical success.

Not to mention the stupid beef **** that put hip hop in people's minds who didn't even listen to the music. Honestly that's really his claim to fame.

I'm sorry but you're ignorant here. He was already a top tier rapper before the beef. And the beef started cause he was robbed and shot 5 times, (2 in the head) in NY while visiting biggie. He got it in his mind he was set up. I believe biggie was an innocent victim of the whole thing but it's not that hard to understand the frame if mind pac was coming from.

He was already under attack from the police and paranoid as a result. The shooting just sent him over the edge. That's why you watch him steadily decline into an all encompassing and consuming paranoia as the years go on. That's what you and other casual critics miss about his gangster persona. He wasn't faking.

He was becoming increasingly alienated and defensive. He got into bed with Suge, a known blood, and started acting like one. He participated in the jumping off a crip in a las Vegas casino and was gunned down hours later, presumably in retribution. He was a living example of the destructive nature of living as a gang banger.

He was a living example of the danger of not being a gang banger but trying to be anyway.

Assumption. I think based on rappers who do know ICP that are from the hood that most people from the hood are impartial. It's usually just elitist try hards that hate them like that. Most others don't care. But, again, I don't take inductive reasoning seriously, let alone inductive guessing.

The point of my comparisons were to show places where ICP excel over 2pac to solidify their place as hip hop and as legends in hip hop. However, I should know that you're just an elitist try hard that will never accept anything that you don't like. Especially something that was culturally hated when got in to hip hop. Like, you're the type of dude that tries to understand Coltrane to appear cultured rather than having a true appreciation or love for the art.



If you truly think that then you don't understand hip hop culture at all or his impact. Which is like, why am I even trying to take you seriously then?

As for beef.. Pac did not insert that into hip hop atb all. Rather he utilized the long standing tradition and format of beef to pursue his vendetta against bite for the percieved betrayal. In a way the east coast west coast beef was the climax in hip hop beefs, but certainly not the beginning.

If you have any interest in hip hop history I strongly suggest you check out the old documentary titled Beef, vols 1 and 2.




Yes the narrator is corny but there's lot good content here, and commentary by real hip hop legends spliced throughout.