Lack of accountability in rap
 

This is an issue that has been bothering me for a while and I can't really see many discussions on the topic, anywhere, least of all the music press. I'm struggling to understand why rap music and musicians seem to get a much bigger pass than other type of musicians. I'm not into rap music, but what exposure I've had to this genre, it appears that its history is full of homophobia, misogyny and just downright nastiness. It seems like there is some kind of double standard at play, if you are hateful in other genres of music your career is dead ( https://thump.vice.com/en_us/article...him-his-career ), but on the other hand if a respected rap artist utters some homophobic thing, they make a half assed apology and nobody thinks more of it ( https://highlandernews.org/31887/emi...ry-homophobia/ ).

One of the most egregious examples of this kind of double standard for me is A tribe called quest's Georgie Porgie. Here we have one of the most respected hip-hop groups of all time, writting one of the most virulently homophobic songs ( https://genius.com/A-tribe-called-qu...-porgie-lyrics ) that didn't end up on their second album simply because the label decided it was too much and which has never officially distanced itself from it. Now, try to imagine if Bob Dylan or Bruce Sprinsteen have in their back catalog a virulently racist song (and the occasional racist outbursts in other songs), which they have never publicly disowned, how would they fair today?

Thinking about more recent examples, Pusha-T's Story of Adidon was downright nasty, not just in its slut shaming (which is of course rooted in misogyny) but also for making fun of a seriously ill person, but Pusha was not called to task for his nastiness, he is on the contrary lauded for his effort.

There is any number of other examples where rap lyrics treat women like nothing more than objects: "On Feb. 24, 18 out of 25 of Billboard’s top rap songs—most of which are also classified as hip hop—had lyrics referring to women as “bitches,” “hoes,” or “whores.” While the core message of most songs do not line up with such belittling rhetoric, these words saturate the songs with misogynistic undertones, and their presence in so many top songs indicates how pervasive said undertones are." https://www.thecrimson.com/column/wh...-installment2/

To my mind this is just another example how homophobia and misogyny are still not treated with the same level of condemnation that we have come to treat racism, and in turn, that homosexuals and women, even in developed western societies, are thought of as less worthy of respect than straight people/men.

Nobody addresses the content of the lyrics in rap, most people simply judge rappers on their "flow". Most of the songs I hear are about bragging how much better you are than other people, is this what makes rap so attractive to its listeners?

How do rap/hip hop fans feel about this when they listen to these kinds of lyrics. Are there any female or gay rap fans here? Would love to hear some insight on this topic.

So....do you listen to any hip hop?

I came in wanting to ask the same thing.

He's not entirely wrong. It exists in hip hop but to generalize and heap everything into that category isn't right, no doubt. It doesn't really bother me as a female and it totally exists in other genres as well so I don't know why hip hop is being singled out. It's unfair to the genre.

Misogyny is still widely prevalent in the genre but I'd say that the past 5 years or so has seen hip hop turning its back on homophobia.

I'd agree to that.

Fist of all, WELCOME THE FUCK BACK adidasss!!

It's all about the money. If hating or comforting a certain group is the ticket of the day, then it will be sung [or RAPPED] about.

I'd agree to this too.

hip hop is dope

Abstract and conscious hip hop are quite different veins from the misogyny etc OP addresses.

It’s still true that the only people an artist needs to be accountable to his own fanbase

The LGBTQBBQ people got all upset when Snoop first said “Frisco ****”

They huffed and puffed and it’s off the record now so is Biggie’s “I don’t give a **** if she’s pregnant- snatch the number 1 mom pendant”

But as the years roll into decades guess what? The people who buy the concert tickets and listen to the music just don’t give a ****. Money talks and bull**** walks.

The PC anti-fun police can’t stop it and if they start up with their oppressive moralism for all - it just sells more records - haha!!!

But... little PC puss wads like Kendrick “oh noes a white person sang my song” Lamar wants to be the new negro God Squad but none of the good next generation rappers give a ****. They wanna party and have a good time and that’s what they’re going to do.

Final note: Just FYI

Nihilism, self-degradation, and life’s not worth it are the most common themes in hip hop- from a literary standpoint hip hop’s closest cousins are Sartre, Nietzsche, and Dazai

The worship of drugs and money and celebration of criminal activity is second

Lyrical content like homophobia, mysogyny, and self-aggrandizement are all distant thirds

We should worry about Porngrind.

Neither Sartre nor Nietzsche were about nihilism nor hedonism. I know what you were aiming at but nah.

I listed hedonism as a 2nd tier theme in hip hop and I thought that it’s not 1st definition nihilism but rather in the commonly used general negativity sense.

The specific books I’m talking about are

Human, All Too Human
Nausea
No Longer Human

Nietzsche was idealistic and optimistic as ****.
It's been a while since I've read Nausea and I'm generally more about Camus than Sartre so you might be not that wrong with him although you probably still are.

Edit: I missed the part about general negativity. I give you that. Both were attacking the **** out of pretty much everything.

FTR, I know that. That surprised me. I didn’t catch on to that until the last couple of years and by listening to the Philosophize This podcast

The important point I’m making is the common theme in hip hop is questioning the value of the individual’s existence

I get that Nietzsche is kind of famous for that more than that’s what he was on about - so whatever

I coulda gone with Nausea and No Longer Human and stayed out of this ****ing quicksand

First off, nice to see some familiar names WHO HAVEN'T CHANGED THEIR NICKNAMES 15 TIMES are still around. :)
I really can't place myself in your shoes but I hope that this "doesn't really bother me" attitude doesn't come from just a general desensitization to misogyny.

I'm also struggling to think of any major artist in other genres that depicts women in quite so vulgar and demeaning way or that could drop a "fa*got" in their songs and get away with it (like numerous rap artists have done, repeatedly). Not in pop, rock, indie, electronic music. Maybe some fringe artists no one pays attention to, certainly not chart topping. Maybe I'm wrong though...

Also, I absolutely don't mean to say that ALL rap is like this and that all rappers rap about are money, bitches and drugs, but a lot of it is...and that's the part we're talking about here.

I agree! At least people are being called out on it and made to backtrack somewhat. We are absolutely progressing. Still long way off from homophobia=racism though...case in point, Roseanne's career is finished but Lakeith Stanfield can just say he was "playing a character" and walk away unscathed...:/

Thanks!
And that's fine but my question is, why do the fans (mostly) accept this kind of behavior and just shrug it off?

I note a hint of derision with this BBQ addition so I continue with caution.
I don't really understand this reasoning, my question is, why is this fun? Is it fun to call women bitches and whores and reduce them to objects? Possibly for men, how about women? Do they matter? Racism is fun for racists, does that mean they shouldn't be called out for it?

I can't say either way, as I said, I'm not deeply involved in the genre, but what we're addressing here is the latter.

And now he's preaching and playing gospel music LOL.

Because the majority of people or mindless idiots.

I hate PC morality policing the arts.

My question is why aren’t rappers getting called out for not being misogynistic homophobic racists?

Like Common, he’s boring as ****. He should start hating on homosexuals and rapping about abusing and raping white women. He’s not stepping up into role as my shuck and jive modern day minstreler that I expect in my hip hop entertainment. It’s offensive and that’s why I’ve always boycotted him.

O.o

Ok, I'm just going to go out on a limb here and decide that you're a troll and walk away.

Alidasss! Nice to see you again! What are you doing in Kuala Lumpur?

I’m fine not arguing about it but my position is sincerely held. I’m not looking for a mother****ing role model. I think your argument is depressing let’s take the fun out of everything puritanicalism. I want rappers who know how to raise hell.

If he’s working and paying taxes he’s supporting one of the most homophobic governments on earth.

I want film and tv to be far more gratuitous
I want hip hop to be more abrasive
I want comedy to be more offensive

I want my entertainment entertaining goddamnit

You consider declining misogyny and homophobia a threat to that? That's just you just being unimaginative.

Hey Jans! Nice to see you too! Working of course, 2.5 years now...:)
:laughing: Not that that was ever true, but you are clearly not up to date, they had a change in government a few months back, this one is a lot more relaxed...;)
I would ask you for examples but this isn't my point.

Anyways, I should point out (for those who haven't figured it out), I am not an american so maybe you have to be to "get it"?

Self-policing of any sort is a threat to that. **** your puss ass pc hip hop.

Never said anything about self-policing mate.

Also gotta love it when people run away from one group of idiots missing out on music only to join another one.

Yes. I love challenges to the status quo and pro-genderbendering and pro LGBTQ+ (especially radicalized) is very welcome afaic - bring it hard - bash back

Kill whitey - Go Go ISIS - it’s all fine

I’m just opposed to getting into a tizzy over homophobia and misogyny - that’s also amusing subject matter

Not to get all high and mighty or preachy as a female but that's just kind of a sad reality about life in general that goes well beyond music. Not saying I see myself as a repressed minority because I still hit the lotto as a semi privilege white female but... yeah. You get use to it sadly. I love hip hop though and don't take the lyrics so literally when they do paint women in a less than dignified light but honestly why would I expect anything different?

And yet here you are getting in a tizzy about it.

There’s a difference between supporting something and not being against something. I support homophobic rappers and radically pro-gay rappers. I’m anti-anti homophobic fans who think rappers should be held accountable.

I’m in a tizzy about blandness.

.

My only take on this is that you have to separate an artists art from their personal life. An artist may rap about homophobia, but that doesn't make him homophobic unless he proves to be.

Same goes for anything really. If an artist I like does something I don't like in person, it's not always connected to my opinion of their music.

idk about this unless you just mean the topic in general.

i'd agree with elphenor's point that classic rock seems to get much more lenience when it comes to this kind of stuff. I mean.. people ignore what they want to ignore.

I have a tough time swallowing DMX past nostalgia just the same as Dire Straits but I feel like anecdotally the latter isn't as widely known about

I'm just saying in general. Not specifically. I just used homophobia as an example.

Do homophobic artists ever talk about homophobia directly or were you talking about homophobic content? If it's the latter do you have an example?

Let me make my point very clear so that there is no confusion. I was using homophobia as a point on top of the initial point which is that the topic at hand is not always connected to the artist. Sometimes it's used specifically for the art. Say for instance an artist raps about depression or anxiety or homophobia etc etc, it doesn't necessarily mean that the artist in question is specifically going through that. They're just delivering a message.

That's why with artists you can't always rate their music based on their personal lives. It's not fair for the art.

Do you think it's fair to glean anything about the artist as a person from their music? Plus do you actually have an example of a rapper with homophobic content who isn't homophobic?

No. I dont. Because I wasn't talking literally homophobia. I was using it as an example based on the thread context. I do think there are exceptions obviously. My point is not meant to be too thought provoking.