dhine31

I agree - Eminem (L)

Soulflower

Your definition of consistent is skewed.

Consistency has nothing to do with quantity. In other words, Jay Z could release an album every single year that doesnt necessarily make him consistent and basing consistency off of quantity does not really reflect the quality of the album.


We are not speaking of quantity albums. The consistency that Fluff and other posters are speaking about is artistic, authentic, creative and thought provoking albums which objectively Jay Z does not have alot of.

Nas has been consistent for the most part since his debut outside of 1-2 albums. Outside of being consistent, Nas is lyrically superior and lyrically equipped than Jay Z. There is no competition.

People keep saying Jay Z has skills but what are these skills? lol

He is not an exceptional free style, battler or lyrist. His lyrics are elementary and lack depth.

MC's like Nas make Jay Z look like a 1st grader trying to rap in a talent show. I know its harsh but its the truth. If you take all those catchy beats and producers away thats what it boils down too.



Actually they do LOL

Wayne had the biggest first week album sales ever by a rapper and has the most top billboard chart positions by any other rapper. Yes, even beating Jay Z.

I dont like Wayne but just saying....

Soulflower

Did you read my last post or did you choose to ignore it? Tupac and Biggie were at the top of their games when they were murdered which affected the dynamic of the rap industry as a whole. Jay Z benefited from their deaths. If Biggie and Pac were alive there is no doubt in my mind they wouldnt allow Jay Z to call himself the best rapper alive. Jay released Reasonable Doubt the same year as 2pac's 7 Day Theory which is more critically acclaim, more successful and overall was a much stronger album. The funny thing is that is suppose to be Jays best work but the truth is there are alot of albums from that era that are way better.







For one thing, gangsta rap is still very prevalent in rap music today so this whole "slighting NWA's influence" is absurd.

Also, Jay Z success is largely related to things that has nothing to do with music such investing in owning clothing lines, NBA teams,etc. He is a very smart businessman but I dont see how this has anything to do with hip hop or music. His ability to adapt has nothing to do with his abilities or skills and more so to do with the producers and beat makers that he had around him. And having a million dollar marketing and backing helped as well. He latches on to the hottest rappers/artists at the moment to stay relevant like he did with Kanye West and like he is currently doing with Justin Timberlake.

He doesnt need the money, I just wish he hang it up because his music is the same generic crap.

But to imply that he has evolved "talent/material" wise is false. He is making the same gimmicky music that he made in the late 90s. His beats are just more in tune with the times.



I dont really like to lump BIG/Pac together because they were different rappers. Pac before he died showed that he cared about more social issues and wanted to gear his music in a different direction which I think would have continued after they peaked. Overall, Pac had more political music than BIG but that was not what BIG was trying to market.



That is true to an extent but to insist that this was the only reason why they were popular is absurd. They both had the biggest album sales and number ones during there time for their music. Tupac was also acting in top block buster movies. Yea there beef helped them stay in the headlines a little but dont be silly.


Every artist has had their peaks. Even the biggest of stars like Beatles, Elvis, MJ etc but just because you peak doesnt necessarily make you unreleavent or less succesful. There influence is very clear in todays music industry.

I dont think 2pac would even want to be as "mainstream" as he was during the 90s. 2pac probably would do more acting, do more hip hop activism, community outreack work and focus more on underground hip hop since that was something he became more interested in before he died. So if he is not mainstream, he would not necessarily have to change anything to get played on the radio. Which is why Nas is content with where he is. Its not about the hits/fame for him like it is for Jay Z.

Out of the two, I could see Biggie doing what Jay Z does but with much better music overall.



Like I said its hard to say whether or not they would have even wanted to be mainstream. The way Pac was going before he died I dont think he cared about the hits and cared more about justice and political issues.

I disagree with this.


For one thing, 2pac never said things like "I am thoughtprovoking" like Jay Z does. Pac never tried to front about what he was. Pac said "Yea I know I act thuggish", "I smoked crack with my mother when I was young", "I am not perfect" etc BUT at the same time he discussed issues that affected people as well as affected him. He sincerely cared about the world and social issues unlike Jay Z who comes off contrived, conceited and is more into his money and image

Pac did not just make social songs. He made social ALBUMS and these issues seemed to be things that he geniuely cared about BEYOND the studio because he would often discuss this issues in interviews, documentaries and with family/friends.

Jay Z on the other hand doesnt do these things and he has never made a album as political and artistic as the "7 day theory"

Most of the lines I hear Jay Z says is " I am the best rapper alive" " I have more money than you" " I am this and I am that" He hardly ever touches on wordly issues and mostly focuses on himself.

Which goes back to why 2pac was popular. Aside from the talent, he RELATED TO PEOPLE and was relatable. You cant relate to someone who is singing about how much richer they are then you LOL



Lauryn Hill just released one solo album "The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill" which is a classic. I dont see people insisting the album is less of a classic since that is the only solo album she released.

Once again you focus to much on quantity instead of the quality of the songs. Now Ive insisted since the very beginning that BIG was a gimmick rapper but he was a gimmick rapper with some good songs and some of those songs are actually classics. Regardless if he released two albums or not, the point is he has classics period. I wouldnt even place BIG in my top 10 but I am not going to sit up here and deny that he doesnt have classics. He died more than a decade ago and still has songs that play on the radio, clubs etc.





Your right.......... but it is a issue when the media is acclaiming you to be the best rapper alive and creative when in actual reality you steal most of your verses from other rappers.

Yes that is a individual problem.


DMX would fry Jay Z in a battle like country bacon.

Jay Z couldnt kill anybody in hip hop either. You have to make real hip hop first before you can kill anybody in it lol



He isnt.

I dont understand the point of your question


Jay Z and BIG are more similiar because they both were gimmick rappers.

Jay Z is still a gimmick rapper.

He does not make political rap music, period.



This conversation is not a comparision between Immortal Technique and Tupac though.

This conversation is between Jay Z and Tupac and out of the two rappers Tupac is superior. He is lyrically superior and has stronger albums.

(Not that it matters but) He also is more iconic and criticially acclaim.


Huh?

Tupac is an international icon and there are many rappers that cite him as an influence and his influence is evident even in todays rap scene. Blueprint is not as influential as the 7 day theory or Me Against the World. Outside of the catchy beats on Blueprint what is influential about the Blue Print???

What kind of arguement is this? It just sounds like you are a Jay Z stan and you feel he is better than everybody even rappers that are far more talented than him lol

The fact that you are aruging he is better than Nas, Rakim 2pac is embarrassing. LOL


Based on this post you obviously do not know what "political" means and you obviously dont listen to 2pac. Political does not necessarily have to pertain to the "government" specifically. It can also deal with injustice, racism, social issues which are all things that affect politics/government.

The example that you gave about Pac rapping about "the black man being held down" actually IS a political issue that is by in large affected by the hegemony of white privilege in this country that has affected minorities for centuries.


There are of course more rappers that were more political than 2pac but he arguably was more political than Jay Z and he seemed to care more about political issues than Jay Z.


You dont know what "political" means and I also insisted that Pac talked about things besides that. I brought that theme up because you are painting Jay Z to be more than what he is and you bizarrely insisted he was better than Nas and Rakim who are well known socially conscious rappers.

Jay Z has alot more filler than 2pac and his strongest albums are better than his entire catalogue.



This doesnt make sense.


If you are implying that Jay Z is the best and there are other rappers that are better than him how does that have nothing to do with this discussion? I just used them as examples.


They are more iconic in terms of "hip hop" and there contributions to the genre. They have more classic albums and material. They are far more lyrically talented songwriters and have more lyrically superior/creative/experimental/influential music than Jay Z.




No I just think your arguements are laugable and biased.



When did I say gangsta rap was important? I just simply insisted that its influence is clear in todays industry. When I speak of the "industry" I am speaking of the mainstream industry not undeground. Are you saying popular rappers like Lil Wayne, Rick Ross, etc dont have some elements gangsta rap music? I dont think its important either I just was trying to make a point.

If you dont want to go back and forth with me... fine but you dont have to be disrespectful just because you disagree because all it shows is that you can not intelligently support your arguement so you have to revert to being childish.

SGR

Dude, do you even read the posts? I said EVERY album he released in that time frame was at least GOOD. I wasn't toting the fact that he released a large quantity alone as evidence of consistency.

Jay-Z has an amalgamation of skills that make him a good rapper. He has a great flow, interesting lyrical nuances, and decent storytelling abilities. Plus he's got a good sense of song structure.

Look at "D'evils" from his first album and how he talks about how he is kidnapping one of his old friend's baby-momma and is paying her to give the location of her lover.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mnyBp4FzzI


or how bout his flow on "Can't Knock the Hustle"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORQOYpLaA9U

I'm gonna be straight with you bro, if you don't think Jay-Z has ANY skills, you just don't know rap music.

Soulflower

You briefly mentioned that "he released an album every year" unlike some of his peers. I can read just fine. I just wanted to address that point.

There isnt anything exceptional about his flow, story telling skills or lyrical nuances. He is average at best. His metaphors, word play and lyrics are not at an exceptionally skill level like Nas who is a talented songwriter and rapper.

In other words, any rapper can do what Jay Z does. His skills are not special or at an exceptional level. That is why I said if you take away the beats and producers there isnt much talent there.

The song is one of HIS better songs but it is not one of the best songs from that era. Ive heard more creative songs.


I am a female by the way not a "bro" lol

And you are using some of his better songs as examples but there are much better songs and lyrists than even those examples and I am going to post examples when I have more time.

14232949

Most of it was opinion being passed off as fact, but unfortunately; yes I did read it. No doubt Jay-Z benefited from the death of BIG, I'm not saying he didn't. But your analysis that had he and Pac not died, Jay would not have had the same success is as you like to say 'absurd'. He managed to be successful without them and in case you didn't notice, it's completely possible for more than one hip-hop artist to find success. In all likelihood Pac and BIG would have wanted to work with Jay as he came up through the late 90's. That would help them stay relevant as Jay was hot at the time. You seem under the illusion that Pac and BIG would have never had a declining popularity. That hip-hop would have just been them two making albums alone until the end of time and nobody else would have had a career.
As for which album has received more critical acclaim/success the facts don't support your statement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_Doubt_(album)
The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Check the sales figures and accolades of each album.

You're also forgetting that Reasonable Doubt was Jay-Z's debut. And with his debut he outshone Pac's greatest album. That's funny.





Where is it prevalent? Prove it.

Jay wouldn't have been in a position to mount success off the back of other ventures if he first hadn't found musical success. You're completely discounting his music as if it had no part of his stature today. Jay-Z himself will tell you he's a rapper first and foremost. That is how people identify him. That is what he is recognized for. I could harp on that 2Pac has made more money from the posthumous sale of tacky merchandise, but that's not what made him a success initially. He didn't start his career with a million dollar marketing scheme, he built his way up into a position where he could deploy it. Don't tell me you don't know Puffy did the same for BIG. Or that Death Row did it for Pac to promote his 'thug' image.
He doesn't latch onto anyone. He works with them. Was BIG latching onto Big L when he worked with him? Was Pac latching onto Snoop when he worked with him? No. Stop being a hypocrite.

So you think the Jay-Z that dropped Watch the Throne is the exact same Jay-Z that released Reasonable Doubt. That he hasn't changed at all? You're tripping. You've already pointed out how he's changed with your previous inane rambling.



I didn't say it was the only reason they had a following. Their beef and subsequent deaths helped glorify them and immortalize them in the eyes of people like you who think that shooting one another is 'real'

Doesn't the fact that those albums sold so well contradict your earlier point about the marketing that Jay-Z uses. Pac and Biggie obviously used the same million dollar marketing schemes to catapult their records to such mainstream attention.
I don't recall one 'top block buster' 2Pac starred in, but if that's what he was doing who's to say he wouldn't have ducked out of rap and went into acting. Leaving the scene for guys like Jay-Z to carry it.



You just said 2Pac had the most commercially successful albums during his time period. Surely it was about the money and fame for him. Why else would he seek to launch an acting career. Had he not wanted to become 'mainstream' he easily could have remained underground. His fame didn't happen by accident. You criticize Jay for things your idol 2Pac did himself. Hypocrisy.

Why would BIG produce any better music? What makes you say that?


Okay, you're digging deeper holes for yourself. We have already established 2Pac did want the money and fame, and was receiving them. He clearly did care.


Pac repeatedly felt the need to keep reminding everyone how much a 'thug' he was, despite being a drama school graduate. It's almost as bad as Ice Cube talking about his ghetto upbringing. So, Pac talked about different things than Jay, how does that make him more 'influential'
You see far more rappers using the same content Jay did than you see emulate Pac. Surely this means Jay-Z's more influential.



Your point?

Nor has he claimed to. It's like criticizing Justin Bieber for not being as environmentally active as Al Gore.

Okay, so now we've taken BIG out the equation surely, because he's the personification of what you seem to hate about Jay-Z. Does Pac getting all preachy about social inequality validate him as a superior rapper? No. That is the basis of your argument.
I also challenge you to find Jay lyrics that same any of what you mentioned.

I don't relate to 2Pac. How does his music speak to me as a white teenager growing up in a Scottish village. Songs like 'Song Cry' talk about relationships and love, which is more relatable than the 'ghetto' which by comparison is a niche subject.


You use the word 'classic' profusely. What does that even mean? They have longevity? As in the same way that albums like Reasonable Doubt are still popular today? You use the word 'classic' like it means something. In reality it's you blindly chucking around the term as if it somehow gives your opinion weight. It doesn't. You haven't described how Ready to Die is any more a classic than The Blueprint. How is the Miseducation of Lauryn Hill more important than The Black Album? Come on, please do explain..

Let's guess it's because they're 'Classics' Please explain how they're 'classics' though.


You made that unsubstantiated claim last time also. You are yet to prove it. I doubt you will as, like a lot of your claims it is completely bogus.


DMX is one of the worst rappers of all time. He has nothing of validity to say. His gimmick is barking at a mic and uttering mindless homophobic jibes. He cannot freestyle nor can he structure a cohesive verse.


What makes 'real' hip-hop? Shooting each other with guns? Does that make 2Pac and BIG 'real' hip-hop artists?


How many times, HE NEVER CLAIMED HE WAS A POLITICAL RAPPER!!! That does not make 2Pac a greater rapper because he touched on politics in his music.





The same way it wasn't about Nas or Rakim, but you felt it was necessary to bring them up.

How does he have 'stronger albums' please explain how that is little more than your opinion.

But we've already established Jay-Z has had more critical acclaim. How is 2Pac any more iconic? Because people like you print off his 'quotes' from Tumblr?


How are those 2Pac albums any more influential? Please give reasons behind your wild accusations. Are you trying to say Jay-Z isn't an international icon and that many rappers haven't cited him as an influence?
I've explained in my posts to Fluffy Kittens, why I favour The Blueprint. Outwith saying they're 'political' or 'classics' I'd like you to explain why you feel 7 Day Theory and Against the World are better albums.

The point I originally made is that Jay-Z has had more influence in the genre than BIG or Pac. So far you have failed to disprove that.

How, please explain? Why is saying Jay-Z is superior to BIG and Pac 'embarrassing'

This is my favourite. I don't know what political means?
"It doesn't have to be about government, but is has to be about things that affect the government?"
And social issues; aren't social issues they are in fact political issues, are they?
I sure as hell hope you never have to explain to a class of children what 'political' means.

Okay, so by you're definition, I was correct. Then why did you have to explain it, as I obviously already know. You just said so yourself.


JAY Z IS NOT, NOR HAS HE EVER CLAIMED TO BE A POLITICAL RAPPER. You keep going round and round in circles and are yet to make ONE valid point!



You just proved I did know your definition of 'political' I never said he was a better rapper than Nas or Rakim. I said he is more consistent. Do you know what 'consistent' means? If you did, you'd recognize he is.

But we've already proved Jay'z debut was stronger than Pac's best album. Odd that.





The irony.


I am not. I said he is more influential than BIG and Pac.

The only point I agree with you on, and the only accurate thing you've said is that BIG and Pac are lyrically better than Jay. I have never argued that. That doesn't make them a better package. Jeff Buckley was a better lyricist than John Lennon, does that make him better? Or more influential?






Do you read anything you write? I've proved many many times how ill-informed and hypocritical your points are.





No, Lil Wayne and Rick Ross do, but you suggested every rapper did. I gave you a bunch of names who are clearly not influenced in my last post. Besides Rick Ross and Lil Wayne are seen by many as laughing stocks.

And with that, I depart. Oh by the way, you also intelligently misspelt 'argument' I have given you all the reasons your statements are misguided and talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. You have got yourself into a little frenzy and have never been able to disprove what I originally said. Good bye.

FRED HALE SR.

This thread is slowly approaching the Pearl Jam thread as an absolute classic.

djchameleon

I'm waiting on the sidelines to jump in like it's double dutch but I'm deciding on the write time so I don't have to quote so much.

__________________

Fame, fortune, power, titties. People say these are the most crucial things in life, but you can have a pocket full o' gold and it doesn't mean sh*t if you don't have someone to share that gold with. Seems simple. Yet it's an important lesson to learn. Even lone wolves run in packs sometimes.

FRED HALE SR.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...yf1fFsB_me7wdA

Reminded me of this. I always check out these whos the best/worst in the rap game archives. I love that ****.

djchameleon

Oh wtf, they need to take K-fed off of that worse list. I actually bought his album. I have the cd in my collection.

__________________

Fame, fortune, power, titties. People say these are the most crucial things in life, but you can have a pocket full o' gold and it doesn't mean sh*t if you don't have someone to share that gold with. Seems simple. Yet it's an important lesson to learn. Even lone wolves run in packs sometimes.