John Wilkes Booth

oh. it sounds like you are unclear on what the term innovate means. maybe you're thinking of the term invent?

Soulflower

That is part of what it means but it sounds like you are unclear with what it means.

Something that is innovative is the first of its kind, its a new idea or something that has not been done before or seen.

While the Chronic might have been experimental and creative, it did not give birth to gangsta rap because gangsta rap was a genre that had already been innovated years prior. The Chronic simply popularized and enhanced the genre but it did not innovate gangsta rap.

John Wilkes Booth

lets see...

in·no·vate
verb
make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas, or products.

the chronic didn't invent gangsta rap but it did mark a change in the sound. that's an innovation.

Frownland

I brought up Janet because I think it's ridiculous that you consider her a legend but not Kanye. If you read what I said earlier I said that people would consider them to be great rappers as well as influence them to be creative within the genre. The reason that I brought up some rappers was because I liked them as well. That's why I didn't include Kendrick (did include Kanye but I did like Yeezus). I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you don't listen to any modern hip hop because you have such a hardcore bias against most modern music. I'd then say that you're out of your depth saying that no rap artist since the 80s has ever caused any changes whatsoever in one of the most popular genres in the US and UK because you don't seek any of the new stuff out under the premise that an album that didn't fall from your glorious years of innovation in hip hop.

If you don't think that Aesop Rock, El-P, Kanye West, and Death Grips had any effect at all in the hip hop world that would lead people to consider them legends (because they got touched by these artists or whichever new goalposts you have up right now), then have fun with your head in the sand. You can influence a genre without being 100% innovative, thousands of artists have done it. It's been said that bad artists copy art, good artists steal it. This can still make waves in the world of x genre because that artist took an idea and made it their own. Plus not everybody knows of the entire history of hip hop themselves so they might hear whatever artist and not know the influences within that music. Then the music touches them and THAT song is what causes them to change their style because they like that approach. Elvis, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, and Michael Jackson are all great examples of this. They take an idea and make it their own, so much so that people consider them to be innovative. I bring up MJ because I know how you feel about him and hopefully you can look at this with less of a biased eye.

So if you think there are no legends today either own up to the hypocrisy of throwing around the term too loosely yourself or you can go ahead and stick your fingers in your ears and rant and tell me how wrong I am.

__________________

Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Soulflower

Okay so here are my receipts.


When I did a google search of various definitions of the word Innovative. This is what I found:

Innovative
: a new idea, device, or method

: the act or process of introducing new ideas, devices, or methods
Innovation - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

1. innovative - ahead of the times "the advanced teaching methods"; "had advanced views on the subject"; "a forward-looking corporation"; "is British industry innovative enough?"
forward-looking, advanced, modern

progressive - favoring or promoting progress; "progressive schools"
2. innovative - being or producing something like nothing done or experienced or created beforestylistically innovative works"; "innovative members of the artistic community"; "a mind so innovational, so original"

innovative - definition of innovative by The Free Dictionary

1(Of a product, idea, etc.) featuring new methods; advanced and original:
innovative designs
innovative ways to help unemployed people
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
1.1(Of a person) introducing new ideas; original and creative in thinking:
an innovative thinker
innovative: definition of innovative in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)



adjective
1.
tending to innovate, or introduce something new or different; characterized by innovation.
Innovative | Define Innovative at Dictionary.com


I am curious, where did you find this definition of "Innovative"

It is not accurate...

Frownland

Really after the first guitar player no guitar player was never a guitar player who ever innovated anything afterwards. Everyone else was just ripping off the first guy.

__________________

Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

John Wilkes Booth

i just typed in define: innovative into google. but honestly it really makes no difference since my definition is compatible with yours. in order to change something you have to do something new or original. it doesn't mean the entire thing is invented out of thin air but the innovation has to be somewhat new and fresh.

in the case of the chronic, the sound they introduced was new and fresh. straight outta compton was not g-funk. the chronic is a completely different type of rap music from staight outta compton. saying it's not innovative just cause gangsta rap had been done before is like saying straight outta compton wasn't innovative because politically/socially charged rap had been done before.

Soulflower

IMO your definition of innnovative implies innovation takes from something already established when something that is innovative is its OWN concept because its original. It doesn't take from anything

And I think an accurate definition does matter if your insisting I am unclear of what it means.

The Chronic is not a "different" type of rap.

It IS gangsta rap period.

It is artistic but that does not mean it is "original"

Frownland

You seriously don't think that it's possible for there to be different levels of how innovative someone is? It's just one set standard? Yes what you describe is innovative, but so is what JWB describes. I have a question, how many hip hop/rap artists have you listened to that are from 2000 or later? Where are you coming from with your claims that none of them have ever done anything innovative in any shape or form?

And what artists do you consider innovative (can be within any genre)? Let's look at those with the same lens that you hold for modern music and prove how nothing can be innovative ever unless it came from Soulflower's designated time frame.

__________________

Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

John Wilkes Booth

fine. then straigh outta compton isn't innovative because it was influenced by all sorts of previous hip hop. at the very least they didn't invent rap music so they took that from someone else thus not innovative. hell, hip hop in general isn't innovative cause it's always taken samples from older music to make the beats, if you want to use that standard.

it's g-funk

the chronic is gangsta rap. so is kool g rap. so is nwa. so is mobb deep. all 4 artists have completely different styles from one another and can't be lumped together by any criteria other than the fact that they all happen to feature lyrics which talk about the criminal lifestyle. who's to say that is the defining quality and not the production style or other stylistic elements of the music that don't specifically relate to the lyrical content?

even with the lyrical content rap was innovated drastically over the period of time from the late 80's to the late 90's. but i'm just pointing out that you can't pick one arbitrary criteria and say that so long as that still applies there's nothing new being presented.