Like I said, liking it and considering it music are two very different things. You're also leaving out a wealth of emcees who put a lot of thought into their lyrics, not every hip hop artist spends every track talking about money and hoes. You're not going to listen because you have your mind made up, but here's a verse from "Soft Places" by Armand Hammer. Doesn't sound like dumb literature to me.

Sold it
Rash moment
Those beans better've been magic homie
"Gotta have hope jack!"
Go ahead and quote it
Smile broken when they broke in
Blind how they stole him
Rip un-woken
Fog rolling off the ocean
Wandering rōnin lay down prepared to meet that fine little pony
Looping Saharan cellphone music
Greets the retreating Romans
Rope and limb, woods dark
Trees groaning
Then he rose and wept without knowing

So part of your main argument let me get this straight you don't believe the beats are music? Before I go on I need to ask why?

Before you get too high and mighty, please remember that Shakespeare wrote plays for Londoners on half-holiday. Which means he was common entertainment for the common man.

When you see a movie that you dislike, would you say "this isn't a movie"?
When you don't like a novel, do you say "this isn't a book"?

No, you don't, because that would be insane.
So, then, why is it okay to say that X isn't music?

You clearly dislike hip hop, which is fine, but that doesn't make it not music. That's delusional.

Also, you can get a lot more removed from what is traditionally considered music than hip hop.

That's a really good point you bring up. On the subject of what isn't or is music, would YOU consider this music?



People (frownland) consider it to be, but I will never understand why. I consider it art, but not music. But I'm curious as to what you have to say, since your a fairly new member, and you bring up some good points.

How's this? White dude, non-thug, intelligent lyrics, and a solid flow. This is the song my signature quotes. You may not like it as music but you can't deny the intelligence behind the writing.

How about this one?

I'm not sure, but I'll have to give it some thought. It was created with musical intent, which is usually enough for me, but this is a bit different.

I suppose that this is about the variations on how a given listener perceives it, which is interesting.

If I had a book filled with blank pages, I would still call it a book, but I would be referring to the object. I'm not sure if I would consider it literature. However, a book can't really ever be blank, can it? It will always have small imperfections in the paper. That's similar to the "silence" in 4'33

I'll try another example. Suppose I make a film of solid black for a given amount of time. There are little scratches and imperfections in the print of the film. This is the same as well, is it not?

So, that was a long winded way of saying that I don't really know. I'm not closed to the idea of it being music, though.

Are you not closed to the idea because you're honestly open to it? Or do you just not want people artier than you to think you're a Philistine? Come on. You know it isn't music. Admit it. Come oooooon.

No, it's considered basket weaving.