Why is modern Hip-Hop music, aswell as mainstream pop so hated by people?

**Janszoon** · 11-12-2014, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DriveYourCarDownToTheSea

I think most musicologists agree that the earliest music was singing. There probably was a melody, of some sort. Most music of primitive cultures involves some sort of melody, even if a simple and primitive one. The earliest music was likely not much different.

And even if you're right, all you're telling me is that rap and punk rock is a regression. No wonder so many people think it sounds "primitive."

I've heard hip hop described as the first truly postmodern form of popular music—that's not something I'd describe as a regression. Minimalism isn't somehow more "primitive" than maximalism and deconstructing form isn't more "primitive" than embracing form.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-12-2014, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I've heard hip hop described as the first truly postmodern form of popular music—that's not something I'd describe as a regression. Minimalism isn't somehow more "primitive" than maximalism and deconstructing form isn't more "primitive" than embracing form.

that's an eloquent way to put it. i've always thought if its so easy to do what rza does by breaking down old soul records and turning them into grimy beats then why is it so many try and yet so few succeed at creating the right sound for the right time and place.

DriveYourCarDownToTheSea · 11-13-2014, 12:50 AM

Well then let's get even more minimalist and eliminate the beat, too. Already got rid of the melody with rap, let's see what else we can pare off. No melody, no beat - just some guy speaking lyrics.

Oh wait - that would be called "a poetry recital."

At some point it ceases to become music.

DriveYourCarDownToTheSea · 11-13-2014, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I've heard hip hop described as the first truly postmodern form of popular music—that's not something I'd describe as a regression. Minimalism isn't somehow more "primitive" than maximalism and deconstructing form isn't more "primitive" than embracing form.

BTW, minimalism has nothing to do with postmodernism. Some postmodern music is minimalist, but postmodern music, by definition, is agnostic about being minimalist or not. And even if rap was postmodern, does not mean it isn't a regression. A lot of postmodern stuff (in music and elsewhere) has been a deliberate regression. Postmodern architecture is perhaps the best-known example: In postmodernism many building were designed to deliberately evoke buildings of 100, 200 years ago. That is a regression; it is doing something that was already done in the past.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-13-2014, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DriveYourCarDownToTheSea

Well then let's get even more minimalist and eliminate the beat, too. Already got rid of the melody with rap, let's see what else we can pare off. No melody, no beat - just some guy speaking lyrics.

Oh wait - that would be called "a poetry recital."

At some point it ceases to become music.

people listen to it for enjoyment which is really the only proper way to define music. the melodies are simplified but the lyrics and the rhythm and cadence of the vocals are made more complex to counter-act that. if you want to try to claim its not music based on some technicality then feel free. watch the rest of us not give a **** about your technicality. if you want to say its not art and takes no talent then you should be able to do it yourself better than the best who have done it. otherwise you are just trying to tear down something you don't understand because it doesn't appeal to you.

**Janszoon** · 11-13-2014, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DriveYourCarDownToTheSea

BTW, minimalism has nothing to do with postmodernism. Some postmodern music is minimalist, but postmodern music, by definition, is agnostic about being minimalist or not. And even if rap was postmodern, does not mean it isn't a regression. A lot of postmodern stuff (in music and elsewhere) has been a deliberate regression. Postmodern architecture is perhaps the best-known example: In postmodernism many building were designed to deliberately evoke buildings of 100, 200 years ago. That is a regression; it is doing something that was already done in the past.

I wasn't saying that minimalism is what makes it postmodern, I was responding to your claim that minimalism is somehow "primitive". What makes it postmodern is the way it deconstructs popular music via things like sampling and turning the medium (records) into an instrument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DriveYourCarDownToTheSea

Well then let's get even more minimalist and eliminate the beat, too. Already got rid of the melody with rap, let's see what else we can pare off. No melody, no beat - just some guy speaking lyrics.

Oh wait - that would be called "a poetry recital."

At some point it ceases to become music.

We didn't get rid of the melody with rap, the vocals were simply turned into a percussion instrument. There is still melody in most hip hop songs, it's just not coming from the vocalist.

Urban Hat€monger ? · 11-13-2014, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DriveYourCarDownToTheSea

I think most musicologists agree that the earliest music was singing. There probably was a melody, of some sort. Most music of primitive cultures involves some sort of melody, even if a simple and primitive one. The earliest music was likely not much different.

And even if you're right, all you're telling me is that rap and punk rock is a regression. No wonder so many people think it sounds "primitive."

If there's no melody then what's the bass doing?

DwnWthVwls · 11-13-2014, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban Hat€monger ?

If there's no melody then what's the bass doing?

By definition:

Quote:

mel·o·dy
noun
a sequence of single notes that is musically satisfying.

I'm not all that familiar with musical terminology. I looked this up a while back while having a discussion with Jans. Does the highlighted phrase mean satisfying to the listener or that the notes satisfy some musical criteria?

If it is the former than the word melody is subjective. Jans pointed out how his grandfather didn't see the melody in the music we were discussing at the time, so if this is the case than I can understand where he was coming from.

Urban Hat€monger ? · 11-13-2014, 10:20 AM

Don't really see the point of posting the dictionary definition because I'm not arguing against him. I'm just wondering why in his criticism about it he talks about the vocals and the beat yet leaves out the bassline which is probably the most melodic part of a hip hop song.

DwnWthVwls · 11-13-2014, 12:37 PM

I don't see how asking a question that promotes discussion makes it seem like your arguing against him but if that's how you want to take it okay.

The bass line is included in the beat. He didn't mention the high hats either OMG.

11-13-2014, 12:50 AM	#73 (permalink)
DriveYourCarDownToTheSea AllTheWhileYouChargeAFee Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,174	Well then let's get even more minimalist and eliminate the beat, too. Already got rid of the melody with rap, let's see what else we can pare off. No melody, no beat - just some guy speaking lyrics. Oh wait - that would be called "a poetry recital." At some point it ceases to become music. __________________ Stop and find a pretty shell for her Beach Boys vs Beatles comparisons begin here

11-13-2014, 10:20 AM	#79 (permalink)
Urban Hat€monger ? The Sexual Intellectual Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Somewhere cooler than you Posts: 18,605	Don't really see the point of posting the dictionary definition because I'm not arguing against him. I'm just wondering why in his criticism about it he talks about the vocals and the beat yet leaves out the bassline which is probably the most melodic part of a hip hop song. __________________ Urb's RYM Stuff Most people sell their soul to the devil, but the devil sells his soul to Nick Cave.