Cuthbert

Cliche'd thread alert.

Similar styles, same number of albums, both from NY, both dead at 24.

Who do you think is better? And why?

L for me. I think Biggie is overrated quite a bit and is all style very little substance. L's content wasn't that much better (though I do think he had more), but I think he also did what Biggie is known for but better and with more wit.

Biggie is often called the GOAT off the back of two albums yet L released two and isn't mentioned anywhere near as much. L's debut is imo better than Biggie's 'Ready to Die'. Gimme the Loot, Machine Gun Funk and Ready to Die are the only tracks I really like from Biggie's but L's is consistent all the way through. Looking at the tracklists again LODPAD is a much better album tbh.

I also think a lot of L's posthumous stuff is better than the stuff Biggie has released. Tracks like Games Females Play, Now or Never, I Won't. The Archives > any posthumous Biggie album.

L has more classic tracks than Biggie, Return of the Devil's Son, Put It On, Ebonics, Size Em Up, MVP are all bangers.

L > Biggie.

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Big L had much superior lyricism, flow, grasp of not only the English language but of effectively utilizing street slang and of storytelling.

Biggie depended on Puffy's marketing schemes to get his dance tracks over, depended on pointless skits and interludes to pad his filler full albums and depended on his feud with Pac to immortalize him.

Plus, L had the underground and rap battle circuit background which would make him a fierce freestyler and battle rapper.
What underground experience did Biggie have? What rap battle experience did Biggie have?
If you put the two of them one on one, L would slaughter Biggie.

Cuthbert

Yeah that's another thing, there's some proper toss on his albums, that interlude on Ready to Die is just awful. The Intro is bad too. There are no interludes on either of L's studio albums.

Didn't Biggie battle though? I swear there are videos of him on street corners battling?

But yeah L was wittier with the punchlines and humour.

Janszoon

I dont actually think they're all that simlar style-wise. But anyway for me it goes to Big L easily. He had a much better flow than Biggie and picked much better music. Lifestyles blows anything Biggie ever did out of the water.

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I recall one song, I want to say Gimme The Loot or Story to Tell but I can't remember (they all blend into one for me) where there was a 20-30 second outro of him coughing up from a blunt. Who felt that was necessary to include in a studio album?

He may have, but to my knowledge he had no prolific background in it. He sure wasn't as revered as L was, if he was at all.

L had a style that was all his own incorporating as you say an element of dark humour with his nonchalant use of 'street' terminology.
Biggie was basically the East's answer to the success guys like Dre and Snoop were having on the other coast.

SGR

These guys are not similar in style at all but I'll compare 'em anyway.

LOPAD is a good album, but that's it. It's not all it's made out to be and Big L isn't the god lyricist he's made out to be. Yeah, he's clever and funny but at the end of the day, he doesn't branch out much from brag/punchline rap and light-horrorcore.

The DITC beats on his debut were very "of-the-time" and they don't stand out as being anything particularly special. I mean, compare Big L's best beats on his debut ("Put it On", "Da Graveyard", "No Endz, No Skinz") to Biggie's best on his debut. ("Me and My Bitch", "One More Chance", "Everyday Struggles") It's not even close, Biggie's beats had much more personality, more dynamics, and at the end of the day, were more interesting and memorable.

In terms of actual rapping, Biggie was also more versatile. His mic presence was monstrous. He told interesting and indelible stories, he could brag, and he was incredibly personable and likeable. (something that Big L was kind of lacking) Biggie's flow is hard to beat as well, look at his ever shifting spastic flow on "Hypnotize". When you've got a flow like that, you could rap the ABCs and still be interesting. Big could rap on hard beats or commercial beats ("Juicy") with ease and he did both well.

Overall, Big L was good (Personally, I think Mad Skillz was a better rapper and he kind of had L's style, check out his debut if you haven't) but I think his is the case of an enlarged legacy due to his death. Not many can do punchline/brag rap as good as L, but the dude seriously lacks versatility. Biggie on the other hand was something truly special and his two albums were classic.

So yeah, my vote goes to Biggie.

Cuthbert

Why don't you think they have similar styles? Big L is more skippy at times but they're not far off. Not like 2Pac and Biggie were.

To be fair thinking about it you're probably right actually.

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I see what you're saying SR, but it's unfair to compare them in terms of production. Biggie obviously had more backing than L in terms of who worked with him and financially as Diddy was bankrolling him. He had acclaimed producers on hand such as DJ Premier and RZA to handle his beats. Besides Biggie had no say whatsoever in his production so it's not exactly fair to hold that against L (who didn't produce either)

L depended less on the beats as they played second fiddle to his words and let his rhymes take focus, which I believe should be the case in hip-hop.
As for versatility, Biggie was being pushed as a club rapper at times as Diddy tried to squeeze money out of his increasing popularity as well as them trying to push the whole 'thug' persona. L didn't have a plethora of gimmicks, he just kept to what he knew and what he rapped about instead of being all over the place, which is another thing that puts me off of Biggie.
L was never going to get a chance to show his versatility on records as he didn't have the backing to have a crack at hitting the mainstream with club tracks and didn't seem particularly interested in doing so.
However, I don't think L was planning on dying so young so who can say what he'd have produced on later records.
If BIG had produced more records, who knows what direction he was headed, as I'd said before he was all over the place; club track, thug track, filler track, interlude, etc.

I agree that BIG had more charisma and presence, but that's part and parcel of being a gimmick. L was a straight up legitimate rapper who could hold down a great studio album as well as mix it up on the rap battle scene and the NY underground (so I guess there's some evidence of versatility) whereas BIG was more concerned with being a larger than life character who wanted to be both the worlds biggest pimp and worlds greatest rags to riches thug. I find it a little corny in all honesty.

SGR

Do you think it's actually unfair to compare them in terms of production? I think that depends on exactly what we are comparing. Are we comparing the music produced by them? Are we comparing the skills of both rappers? If the latter, then doesn't an MCs ability to work in tandem with the beat come into play? With Biggie, when he'd tell a dark story, you'd fittingly get a haunting backing beat to supplement the story. With Big L, the beat and the rapper were a little bit more disconnected. As you said, that might put more focus on the rapper, but personally I really enjoy a rapper who create a cinematic vision with the combination of rap/beat.

The fact that L never showed versatility doesn't have anything to do with having a shot at the mainstream. He did punchline rap and that was that. Meth and Red were punchline rappers and they were very popular, but they also showed versatility in their albums. (check "Tical 2000" for Meth's apocalyptic vision and "Dare Iz A Darkside" for Red's example of what happens when a rapper becomes addicted to acid)

I don't think an "image" (in this case, Biggie being a thug) equals a gimmick. Sure it might give them a lyrical leaning, but that's not really a gimmick. I don't think charisma and mic presence comes with being a "gimmick". For example, check out Silkk the Shocker's stuff. He was very gimmicky with his totally-off beat nonchalant rapping but he didn't really have much personality or mic presence.



You also bring up that L was a "straight up legitimate rapper" but that brings up the question, what qualifies someone as that? Not having a mainstream appeal? Having limited subject matter? Mostly having qualities that appeal to underground hip-hop fans? (lyrical dexterity, internal rhyme schemes, alliteration, multisyllable rhymes, etc) What makes this song:



any less legitimate than this song?

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It was my assumption we were comparing them as artists and since neither had a hand in the production of their records I felt comparing them as MC's be only fitting, but I see your point.

L did keep it rather one dimensional in terms of the production his records used, but as I said Biggie obviously branched off into different directions early in his career, he wasn't just a party rapper, not just a 'thug lyf' rapper he was an unsuccessful bit of both in my eyes. Would L have switched it up in later albums, I'm not too sure. He seemed content with the style of rap he was doing.
From what we've seen his second studio release lacked progression and suffered in quality as a result of being too similar to LODPAD but his debut is more consistent and of a higher overall quality than Biggie's two records in my opinion.
If we're giving props to artists on account of production, L isn't even going to stack up to 2Chainz, but that doesn't mean 2Chainz is a better rapper.

Regarding fitting onto beats better, I feel that the production on Biggie's records were tailored to the different moods conveyed on the albums. Puffy wanted a party track he's obviously going to have a hand in creating a livelier more up-tempo beat whereas if you've got a track like Suicidal Tendencies it's going to be fitted to a darker beat.
Most of the beats on L's records don't stray too far into the obscure, many use the same instrumentation and patterns but L's records were never about the production taking centre stage, it was about hearing what he had to say.
Had Big L had the production team assembled that Biggie had, with beats tailored specifically for his style, that would have been interesting.

Regarding versatility, I think L had very much found his comfort zone but the decline in quality from his debut to his sophmore release shows that you cannot keep playing the same hand and hoping to always get a winner. Had he lived longer, he likely would have experimented in other directions but that wasn't to be.
As for what they produced, sure Biggie's style was more varied however I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. Sure he was a jack of all trades, but that doesn't mean he mastered them all. Hence the amount of filler tracks on his records. For every Big Poppa or Juicy you have a Friend of Mine or Machine Gun Funk.
LODPAD is solid throughout. L keeps the same style throughout and has a much more consistent record as a result.

It helped give Biggie more of a character, as a person Lamont Coleman was pretty dull. It wasn't until he stepped behind a mic and became Big L that he burst to life. Biggie obviously had more character, I'm not doubting that but had L worked with the right people, he could have been brought out of his shell more. He was regarding in life as a rather shy human being, had Puffy been behind him it could have been a different story. L was the better of the two when it came to raw MCing ability, Biggie was able to triumph him in terms of presence and personality. But I guess it depends on what you look for in music, if you want the greater lyricist who has the superior raw talent and mind for rap, L's your man; if you prefer the charismatic story teller who can captivate the audience, you'd go for BIG.

I consider L a straight up legitimate rapper because that's what he did, he just rapped. He had no gimmick, no alter ego, nothing to distract from the primary focus of his music, which was to lay solid verses. I guess this appeals to underground fans who just want to hear a nigga who can rhyme good without centre focus on who has the best production, superior marketing, better backstory or larger personality. When it comes down to who's better on the mic, that's what being a legitimate rapper is about. Who can rhyme better, who has better lyrics; who is nicer on the mic. That's at least how I'd define legitimate rapper. L didn't have top production, marketing, a fake back story or an exaggerated personality. Look at today's rappers:
A$AP Rocky - Great production
Nicki Minaj - Great marketing/Crossover appeal
Rick Ross - Great (fake) back story
Danny Brown - Massive Personality

are any of those guys superior to Big L as an artist because they have those range of benefits going for them?

P.S. In regards to the videos, they're subjective. I'm not too familiar with either artist so couldn't tell you which is more legitimate. You'll know yourself as you posted them