But I wasn't comparing the merits of Jay-Z to Hemingway. I was taking the crux of your argument and applying it the most extreme case I could think of to see if your argument remained consistent. Props to you for staying consistent, even though I think your nuts lol

Well, if you agree then I suppose I don't have much else to say, except that seems to contradict your saying that Hemingway could be considered a terrible writer to someone who doesn't enjoy his work.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of Jay-Z's. If you want to debate his importance that's certainly something that can be discussed. I've only ever been saying that if you can recognize an artist's significance, your calling him/her terrible should be only a bearing on your opinion of them, and that respect can still be held for an artist you dislike (if it's deserved. You don't think it is for Jay-Z as I understand it, and that's perfectly valid).

:confused:

Phew, finally someone says I'm allowed to think Jay-Z is terrible. Thank you.

As far as influence goes: Yeah, he's been around for a long time and is very popular, I'm sure he's influenced a lot of people. I don't think I've ever claimed otherwise.

I think it may have been confused though. When people hear that you think an artist is terrible and will not falter on the position, they think you're also attacking his significance, which is the base debate here. Not many of the dudes in this argument like HOVA that much (myself excluded) but they were defending his character in terms of his place in the rap canon, which, they seemed to claim, can't be knocked, as it's objectively recognized (much like, sadly, Eminem's canonization). That's my interpretation of the situation anyway

sorry about that first part btw, it's my consciousness of the letter Z, an advertisement they once aired on a banned episode of Sesame St.

Basically. Calling 2pac a terrible rapper or Hemingway a terrible writer seems more a bearing on their mastery of the medium then your opinion of them. I don't enjoy reading Shakespeare at all, but it would be absurd of me to call him a terrible writer.

Ah, you're right. I see what you're saying.

You think my nuts what?! :eek:

Not sure I follow. If someone thinks Hemingway is terrible, it seem obvious to me that they would not enjoy his work.

All I've really been saying here is I personally think Jay-Z is terrible and I disagree with the people who seem to think I'm not allowed to have that opinion for some reason. As I said at the very beginning of the conversation, "Of course it's my opinion. This is a conversation about personal taste."

Respect bro.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...-Nazi-1613.png

See my post below yours. We might be able to chalk this 2 hour argument up to a misinterpretation. :laughing:

The funny part is I explicitly stated that I was simply talking about my personal opinion of his music right at the very beginning of the conversation.

Good thread this.

Beating a dead horse do not care

What people were alluding to prior was that you could respect any other artist enough to not warrant calling them terrible, whether they be led zeppelin or whatever, their amount of influence wouldn't have been possible if they were indeed "terrible".

Surrel when Lil Wayne is called terrible you can make objective reasons as to why he's not.

Believe it or not "terrible" artists (maybe i have a wildly different definition of the word then others) don't have expansive careers.

Terrible artists-chingy, panic at the disco, styx, whatever they arent around for long

Styx has been around for like 40 years Sparky.

edit: alright styx did pretty good for themselves not going to lie.

I had no idea time was measured by mixtapes and MTV appearances!

Edit: You changed your post. Anyway, in response to the revised one, I'm no Styx expert but they were successful in the 80s, which would be 10-15 years into their career.

Janszoon going HAM on the grammar tonight.

:laughing:

What did I say about grammar in that post?

I thought you were mocking the way he structured his sentences.

alright styx being the ONLY exception:laughing:

alright **** it honestly i've never listened to a jay z album

SO? i created an epiphany in this argument, whatchu done? besides not listen to Jigga?

btw styx is wack

is he any good? I might check him out. I am quite fond of "big pimpin"

I ****in' hate that song, but Blueprint is dece

I have the Black Album, and even though he's bragging for most of it, the beats are nice, his rhymes are nice, and it has 99 Problems, which is worth practically anything. Also, you'd probably love the Gray album if you haven't heard that either, it r legend

yeh gray album cool i got that

Well then you already have the black album with even better beats.

you are saying you already have it, right? or that you've got it on your stocking list?

please u think ima get dat with no milk n cookies out

**** man ive been so conflicted this year, hopefully santa understands my actions weren't reflective of who i really am.

Janz destroyed this thread.

You made your opinion on Jay-Z noted long before the argument started. lol.

When I say "destroyed" I mean he won the argument, just to clarify.

What about the argument did he win? If we're gonna clarify, I want you to clarify that you actually read any of it.

I think him and I were in agreement on the basis of the entirety of the argument at the end, so I honestly have no idea how anyone could have 'won'

So Jay Z does suck, I agree. Hes been very influential in flooding the airwaves with dog**** and infecting other rappers with the same disease. Here we go again.

Goofle comes from the Janz school of thought, consists of blanket statements and never being able to support one's opinion with reasoning.

-"this artist is terrible. thats all i want to say over and over"

:)



I'm just going to requote everything since this argument nevery actually goes anywhere

I never got the Jay Z phenomenon either. I can respect the way he has made a name for himself, but it baffles me everytime I hear a song by him, why hes revered in such a way. I would say more power to him, but hes like the new Mcdonalds or Starbucks, seemingly taking over the Universe, so hes fine.

I think he comes from the school of thought of "Jay-Z sucks and Janszoon is a cool guy, screw it I'll agree with whatever the hell he's saying"

This discussion kind of evolved beyond Jay-Z's importance, yeah you could probably logically argue how much impact Jay-Z had. This was more about objectivity and it's place in art.

Exactly. If it helps you can win the argument and i'll be the guy losing because Jay Z's influence is breaking down barriers for some kid in Harlem. :wavey:

Good to see you back Tuna.

Alright, lets take a fresh approach at this. I'm going to provide an an example of jay z's music and try to provide reasons as to why it's a POSSIBILITY it might be good.



Infectious beat. Provides social commentary about police racial profiling while still not taking itself too seriously, a la 99 problems. Jay'z cadence wordplay, etc does nothing to DETRACT from the song. Lets compare it to an artist who is no doubt terrible



How do you not notice a discrepancy.

Yeah that Lex Luger jam was way tighter. Good beats and his flow wasn't droning on like a Jay Z slobberfest. Good call. OK I'm out, good luck guys.

:laughing:

Whats the entire point of this site if nobody wants to substantiate why an artist is bad but rather just remain vigilant in their own ineptitude.